$146,000 and 4.5 Years Training to Become a Guide?

as D-Roc says, for the money you could go to a private university.

Or better yet, go to a good state school with a well funded campus recreation center, get a job in the outdoor program, have them pay for your WFR, learn to roll a kayak in the swimming pool, go sport climbing with your buddies, meet girls, etc etc. Spend a couple seasons climbing after graduation and then go for accreditation, guide a bit, burn out, and become a high school teacher! Think of the savings.

I’d like to give my personal perspective on the school. I have been attending The Mountain Training School full time since June of 2015. I am a Veteran and have used my GI Bill benefits to pay for the school. I am looking at becoming one of the first Veterans to graduate the program since they started accepting the GI Bill [roughly two years ago] albeit I only did the rock guide track and will not be pursuing the Skiing and Mountaineering tracks although I did complete their intro courses for Ski and Mountain.

First off, the school is not a scam. They have been a school for just about 10 years now and are accredited by the Wilderness Education Association. They are a fairly new school though so they have not built a reputation like Colorado Mountain School or the Alpine Institute just yet. They are the only school that I am aware of that offers a fully immersed program like this. The school is designed to take students with little to no experience and give them the experience necessary to pursue an AMGA or IFMGA level certification. They do not give any AMGA courses or certifications but no school out there does. You have to go through the AMGA directly to pursue rock/ski/alpine guide. Yes some schools offer the SPI course but you still have to go through the AMGA to take the exam and get the certification. Plus if you are looking at getting an SPI cert, you certainly aren’t looking at going to a 4.5 year school to get it.

In the year and 6 months I have been with the school, I have trained in Alaska, Patagonian Chile and Argentina, Spain, Morocco, and Japan. I have been trained by AMGA and IFMGA guides from the USA, Canada, Chile, Argentina, Spain, Germany, and Italy and have learned from lesser certified guides from even more countries around the world. The school is a great place to network and meet guides from around the world and I think that is a huge asset in and of itself. I completed my AMGA Rock Guide Course last May and will be submitting my resume for the ARGC in March. I gotta say though that I came into the school with prior experience which is something that needs to be mentioned anyway:

Like I already mentioned the school is designed for people who have little to no prior experience. To even take the most basic AMGA course, one of the prereqs is that you have 5 years’ experience in the discipline. So if you look at a fully certified AMGA or IFMGA guide, how much time have they put into their certification? First they needed at a bare minimum of 5 years prior experience and then however long it took to complete their full certification track which could take many years. Another prereq is to have WFR cert which you get through MTS. So MTS is basically just setting up the student to be fully prepared to go straight into a certification track with their choice certifier.

On the subject of certs, you will receive WFR/CPR, WEA rock/mountain/ski depending on which courses you take, AIREE 1 plus you may take other clinics throughout the school for instance I have taken a rigging for rescue fundamentals seminar and rock warriors way trad/mental clinic which was covered in the tuition and other students have gotten their IRATA (rope access) certs through courses they have taken.

As far as costs, a 42 day course with a 2:1 student to instructor ratio runs at $8000. Compare that to
alpineinstitute.com/program… coloradomountainschool.com/…
nols.edu/en/courses/courses…
outwardbound.org/course/col…

I do want to say that if you have the prior experience and are already looking at taking your intro AMGA courses; this school is probably not for you. But I should caveat that by saying that yes, you can learn the technical skills out of a book, climbing a lot, and hiring a guide a couple times but that’s not what this school is, the school is a comprehensive way for a beginner level climber/skier to get your foot into the guiding industry. You aren’t just learning the technical skills, you are also networking and learning leadership and human skills. Anyone can pretty easily climb 5.10 trad, learn to tie a clove hitch, or learn how to block your ATC and ascend a rope but where do you go to learn the human factor side of guiding]; to learn what terrain is appropriate for your clients, learn how to care for your clients, learn when safety is more important than the summit, etc… With the popularity of climbing, skiing, and mountaineering exponentially expanding, there will be a demand for competent guides and having schools that produce competent guides makes sense to me.

If anyone has any questions about the school or program, please feel free to ask me.

I remember years back looking into this program,then I met and climbed with actual IFMG's. Why would anyone choose another path?

Thomas Gilmore wrote:I’d like to give my personal perspective on the school. I have been attending The Mountain Training School full time since June of 2015. I am a Veteran and have used my GI Bill benefits to pay for the school. I am looking at becoming one of the first Veterans to graduate the program since they started accepting the GI Bill [roughly two years ago] albeit I only did the rock guide track and will not be pursuing the Skiing and Mountaineering tracks although I did complete their intro courses for Ski and Mountain. First off, the school is not a scam. They have been a school for just about 10 years now and are accredited by the Wilderness Education Association. They are a fairly new school though so they have not built a reputation like Colorado Mountain School or the Alpine Institute just yet. They are the only school that I am aware of that offers a fully immersed program like this. The school is designed to take students with little to no experience and give them the experience necessary to pursue an AMGA or IFMGA level certification. They do not give any AMGA courses or certifications but no school out there does. You have to go through the AMGA directly to pursue rock/ski/alpine guide. Yes some schools offer the SPI course but you still have to go through the AMGA to take the exam and get the certification. Plus if you are looking at getting an SPI cert, you certainly aren’t looking at going to a 4.5 year school to get it. In the year and 6 months I have been with the school, I have trained in Alaska, Patagonian Chile and Argentina, Spain, Morocco, and Japan. I have been trained by AMGA and IFMGA guides from the USA, Canada, Chile, Argentina, Spain, Germany, and Italy and have learned from lesser certified guides from even more countries around the world. The school is a great place to network and meet guides from around the world and I think that is a huge asset in and of itself. I completed my AMGA Rock Guide Course last May and will be submitting my resume for the ARGC in March. I gotta say though that I came into the school with prior experience which is something that needs to be mentioned anyway: Like I already mentioned the school is designed for people who have little to no prior experience. To even take the most basic AMGA course, one of the prereqs is that you have 5 years’ experience in the discipline. So if you look at a fully certified AMGA or IFMGA guide, how much time have they put into their certification? First they needed at a bare minimum of 5 years prior experience and then however long it took to complete their full certification track which could take many years. Another prereq is to have WFR cert which you get through MTS. So MTS is basically just setting up the student to be fully prepared to go straight into a certification track with their choice certifier. On the subject of certs, you will receive WFR/CPR, WEA rock/mountain/ski depending on which courses you take, AIREE 1 plus you may take other clinics throughout the school for instance I have taken a rigging for rescue fundamentals seminar and rock warriors way trad/mental clinic which was covered in the tuition and other students have gotten their IRATA (rope access) certs through courses they have taken. As far as costs, a 42 day course with a 2:1 student to instructor ratio runs at $8000. Compare that to alpineinstitute.com/program… coloradomountainschool.com/… nols.edu/en/courses/courses… outwardbound.org/course/col… I do want to say that if you have the prior experience and are already looking at taking your intro AMGA courses; this school is probably not for you. But I should caveat that by saying that yes, you can learn the technical skills out of a book, climbing a lot, and hiring a guide a couple times but that’s not what this school is, the school is a comprehensive way for a beginner level climber/skier to get your foot into the guiding industry. You aren’t just learning the technical skills, you are also networking and learning leadership and human skills. Anyone can pretty easily climb 5.10 trad, learn to tie a clove hitch, or learn how to block your ATC and ascend a rope but where do you go to learn the human factor side of guiding]; to learn what terrain is appropriate for your clients, learn how to care for your clients, learn when safety is more important than the summit, etc… With the popularity of climbing, skiing, and mountaineering exponentially expanding, there will be a demand for competent guides and having schools that produce competent guides makes sense to me. If anyone has any questions about the school or program, please feel free to ask me.

Thanks for the other side of the story, Thomas. Sounds like you think highly of it and are enjoying it. Can't argue with that (but someone will!). Everyone will say it costs too much, but that is the nature of MP.

That's cool you are going to the school and having fun doing it. No problem but until you graduate and can prove there is some kinda benefit to taking it that is worth paying 150k you can't say much.

Is there anyone out there who paid 150k to them and have a job worth what you paid?

I am sure all plenty of people were having fun going to those tech school scams and had fun doing it than finished and found out going to it hurts their chances of ever getting a real job. So the question is, will that 150k you paid help you get a job that is worth the investment. I could care less if you learn something or not, it is about getting a job that will pay you back for your investment.

Sure if you have 150k sitting around you don't care about and want to spend 4 years having fun go for it. It sounds like it could be fun just expensive and will never have a return on the investment to be worth it.

Everyone is different you got to look at you own position. Are you looking for a job / investment or are you looking to do it for fun. Than you need to look at what type of risk you are willing to take. Is the 150k worth the risk of maybe not being helpful in getting a job of the value you want to pay for it etc.

If I had joined the military and didn't want to go to college afterwards and wanted to climb, I would definitely join this program since it would be an informative, paid-for climbing/mountaineering/skiing trip around the world.

I just don't buy their promises of a great career afterward, although I understand they probably had to say that to sell it to the VA. By its nature, guiding is a job where you only get paid for the time you are physically there- there is no ";whole is greater than sum of its parts"; like when you work in a company each with your own specialized contribution. It does not seem to have an upward career trajectory. Instead, like a professional athlete, the time is finite (55 they truthfully estimated) and less if you get injured.

I realize many people guide for a living, but they probably don't start off so much in the hole. Of course if you earned the GI Bill and have no plans for college (and don't have to quit a good job), then it's a great, fun, low-risk thing to do.

From the letter to parents:

"Nearly all guide companies provide food, housing, uniforms, or similar for their guides. Guides also earn tips. Why is this important? Because it means that they have little in the way of "life" expenses. Unless a guide invests in a rental property (many guides buy a house to live in during the offseason, and to rent out during the working months), they're unlikely to have to pay rent, pay for meals, or pay for a good part of their clothes/gear.
That means that their take home pay will be almost their entire salary. Most newly certified guides are able to save, in the bank, $15000 to $25000 a year when working full time."

Dude is very confused. Salary minus taxes and other payroll deductions like health insurance is take-home pay. You pay your living expenses out of your takehome pay.

Elsewhere he states that most new guides earn $40,000. Assuming that is remotely possible (do new guides actually work 200 days a year?) take home pay (salary after taxes) would be about $31,000 in Colorado. It would be extremely difficult to save $15,000, let alone $25,000, out of $31,000 take home pay--especially if you have to pay back a $150,000 loan.

PRRose wrote:From the letter to parents: "Nearly all guide companies provide food, housing, uniforms, or similar for their guides. Guides also earn tips. Why is this important? Because it means that they have little in the way of "life" expenses. Unless a guide invests in a rental property (many guides buy a house to live in during the offseason, and to rent out during the working months), they're unlikely to have to pay rent, pay for meals, or pay for a good part of their clothes/gear. That means that their take home pay will be almost their entire salary. Most newly certified guides are able to save, in the bank, $15000 to $25000 a year when working full time." Dude is very confused. Salary minus taxes and other payroll deductions like health insurance is take-home pay. You pay your living expenses out of your takehome pay. Elsewhere he states that most new guides earn $40,000. Assuming that is remotely possible (do new guides actually work 200 days a year?) take home pay (salary after taxes) would be about $31,000 in Colorado. It would be extremely difficult to save $15,000, let alone $25,000, out of $31,000 take home pay--especially if you have to pay back a $150,000 loan.

I imagine provided guide housing to be very rudimentary, dormitory style housing to keep costs down. How does this lend to keeping a family around?

In their financing page, they offer a 10.5% APR which is almost credit card rate high. My student loans were financed at 6-7% 8 years ago and these days the going rate is much lower. At their 10.5% APR on a 10 year loan it's roughly $1,400/month. Take home salary on $40,000 is guesstimated at $2,600 after health insurance and all taxes leaving the person with $1,200 a month. If the person doesn't spend a single dime they can save $14,000.

Bill Kirby wrote: To give some basis of comparison, my brother, a PhD statistician who works for a large pharmaceutical company, is able to save roughly that same amount per year. This guy could sell shit to a pig farm. I think this guy worked on Wall Street at one time. m.youtube.com/watch?v=VZhPi…

I bet some definitions stretching was involved here. For example, they "meant" PhD statistician brother saved $15,000 or $25,000 after maxing out 401k, Roth IRA, paying mortgage on an expensive house, paying student loans, paying for an Escalade and Jaguar, 2 exotic vacations a year, private school tuition for 2 kids, and upkeep of trophy wife.

You can save the same amount if you work as a guide- but spend no money!

This program seems geared for the "I don't know what I want to do" person, because they specifically welcome those with no experience. I don't know why a person who isn't already passionate about these endeavors would enroll in guiding school. Reminds me of a girl I know who wanted to be a barista one day, then the next day wanted to become a personal trainer one day despite never working out and not knowing much about exercising. I realize people who enroll in medical school often haven't had much experience either, but guiding and physical training seem like careers you embark on due to a passion.

But as I mentioned, if I had the GI bill, won the lottery, or my parents could be swayed by that very convincing letter, I would do it. And the information seems transparent with no hidden agenda, and thus I think the creators have good intentions.

Looks like they're out of business.

mountainguideschool.com/

Wow, thanks MP! I wonder what happens to the students? Hopefully they don't get too screwed by this.

BGardner wrote:Looks like they're out of business. mountainguideschool.com/

Very strange. Four days after a thread starts and a student posts lengthy accolades, they shut down? Something doesn't pass the sniff test.

I found some threads on summit post discussing these guys. The owner went on a few times posing as a satisfied Student to talk them up. Probably happened again here.

I had looked into this place as well. I think their main target is vets with money to pay for education from the GI bill. I guess trustafarians would work as well, though I don't picture many of them being a guide.

I was on their mailing list and got this on January 1.

"Dear Chris,

It is with great sadness that we announce that the Mountain Training School will be closing its doors on the 1st of the year.

It has been the greatest pleasure to work with all of our staff and students for the past decade; we'll miss you all.

I'm uncertain what the next steps will be for us, but we're looking forward to new and exciting challenges in the new year.

Over the next few weeks, we'll be working to finalize accounts and wrap things up. If you have any questions or needs, billing questions can be emailed to billiing@mountaintrainingschool.com and other questions or thoughts can be sent to signoff@mountaintrainingschool.com

I wish you all the very best of luck moving forward, and I hope that we cross paths in the mountains one day soon.

"How lucky I am to have something that makes saying goodbye so hard." -- Winnie the Pooh

-Benjamin, Jaya, and the Mountain Training School Team"

Definitely seems a bit shady.

Danforth wrote:I found some threads on summit post discussing these guys. The owner went on a few times posing as a satisfied Student to talk them up. Probably happened again here.

Looking at his post history, I kind of doubt that.

Dylan B. wrote:I wonder if they're shuttering their doors because the Department of Ed is being much stricter about which schools qualify for federal student loan money. I know the for-profit Charlotte School of Law just lost eligibility under Obama's DOE regulation change. Maybe these folks did too.

Typically the DOE only cares about schools issuing federal student loans. (I work in higher education and deal a lot with regulation/accreditation.) I am guessing they just didn't have any customers with that price tag lol

Being in higher education, I did once discuss the "guiding educational process" with a well established mountain guide in the USA. According to him, he had spent about $60k over his career in training and certification programs. Although $60k is high, it is a lot lower than $146k. Plus he was also working as a mountain guide or an assistant mountain guide while doing it.

Dylan B. wrote: Are educational benefits through the GI Bill not handled by DoE? If they're DoD, then doesn't the DoD defer to DoE judgments about accreditation?

The VA benefits are handled very differently, as they apply to many smaller tech schools and training programs. I was honestly surprised to see them offering VA benefits, as it is still a pretty involved process.

There is no way they were academically accredited at all. First, they would have to publish the institution that accredited them. Second, the materials on their website would not be allowed whatsoever. We literally have to have a compliance officer read and scrutinize every line of text that goes onto our website. (Just another reason why educational costs are growing higher and higher!) Oh man, if we ever published that our students should use birth control.....I can't even imagine the repercussions...

I never like to label things a "scam". However, I can say that this seems like a pretty cost ineffective way to train mountain guides.

Peter T wrote
Wow, thanks MP! I wonder what happens to the students? Hopefully they don't get too screwed by this.

Unfortunately, they are. People stranded around the world, others out thousands of dollars, employees not paid for months. One example: gofundme.com/2jd7r58

Not that the company's certifications were worth much in the real world, all the student's "certifications" vanish with the company. I believe the one exception is the WFR cert. However, the company was never recognized the Wilderness Medical Association, so when people have to re-cert they are going to discover that they need to take the entire course again.

The closure took place overnight; in business one day, out the next. Neither staff or students that I have heard from received any prior warning. This was a snakey outfit from the get go. If they have squandered funds they received as part of the GI Bill, they will likely be answering to the Feds and that won't be pretty.

Wow, pretty crazy. I wondered if this thread had anything to do with it. Surprised me because they had a lineup of classes and events for the year planned.

olddog wrote:employees not paid for months.

olddog wrote:The closure took place overnight; in business one day, out the next. Neither staff or students that I have heard from received any prior warning.

that does not sound overnight! lol

OK. How about:

Employees owed months of back wages.

Open one evening, closed the following morning.

LOL. I forgot how precise one has to be on this forum.