Starting to follow before the leader puts you on belay?

Wanted to start a new topic to avoid bogging down this accident post with unduly critical and/or heated commentary, especially given that the facts aren't yet fully clear. Over there, someone commented:

Every leader risks a ground fall before they place the first piece. If the follower would gladly have taken that risk, he sometimes declines the protection afforded by a top rope in order to preemptively clean that first piece in order to be efficient. The belay had not yet begun.

My response was:

No offense intended to the injured party, and I truly hope he makes a full recovery, but I’m totally baffled by what you’re describing here as if it were standard practice. Why would anyone do this? Why not wait to be put on belay and just clean the first piece and every other piece on your way up? Surely the time savings are minimal. 

What I have heard of is cleaning one or two pieces of an anchor while waiting to be put on belay, if the remaining piece is bomber. But in that situation you are not exposing yourself to a fall.

When someone countered that this practice didn't seem unreasonable because "the leader was perfectly fine being unprotected for the first 10-15 feet of the climb," I added:

To me frankly it seems kind of unreasonable (I guess unless you're trying to set a speed record) because, among other concerns, what if the leader doesn't manage to put you on belay by the time you're 15 feet up, for whatever reason? Downclimb? Just keep soloing? How would you even know? The difference for the leader is that they had the option of hanging on that first piece. Also, just visualizing this: if the leader puts you on belay with 15 feet of slack, won't you have to stop or slow down anyway so that they can catch up? Which would seem to negate the benefits...

Anyway maybe we can continue the discussion here, to be critical of practices without seeming to criticize the injured climber.

Could have just been a miscommunication. High wind, hard to hear, leader takes a long time setting belay, rope jerks around for a while, 2nd seems to think they're on belay, and they start climbing.

I did this once. 

Climbing before being on belay is obviously risky and should not be encouraged. That’s why it’s not standard practice.

But I’m not going to act baffled that it happened, especially when I’m passed by soloists in Eldo more and more frequently. People like going fast, maybe rain was coming in or they just wanted to feel “efficient”, as is being pushed so often these days. Regardless, the start of the Wind Tower is often a solo for me when I’m leading the first 20’ because I don’t like to place on the opposite of the arete.

You seem dumbfounded by this incident, when I really don’t think it’s so crazy. Hope the victim heals soon, and I hope nobody climbs before being on belay.

If the leader has managed to produce much rope drag, they'll appreciate being able pull up an extra 10 or 20 feet of rope using both arms before putting the 2nd on belay. 

Sometimes I do this when the pitch is a little longer than the rope--pick a moment when the leader is at gear and stable and take the anchor out and scramble to belay at the next piece of gear; but this is more like simulclimbing--the leader hasn't come off belay yet. 

Either way, I wouldn't call it standard practice and definitely not something I do unless I (and my partner) would be 100% happy with me soloing the start. 

What about leading before being put on belay? I have done plenty of that too. Neither leading or following before being put on belay is neccesarily a big deal, and neither is exactly soloing either. It all depends on the complete situation. Neither of them is appropriate for a guiding situation however. 

Back in the DARK AGES, before every El Cap route had every belay equipped with multiple big honken bolts (yeah I know that's an exaggeration), in my crowd it was common for the second to start moving up the aid placements while the leader was still leading,  follower cleaning as he went. You might have a half dozen placements cleaned by the time the leader was tied off. I would just muscle the haul bag up as I went. We didn't bring a hotel room with a fully stocked bar with us. 

I am not recommending these things. Attitudes were different. We generally had about 2 rules. 1. Don't fall.  2. If your partner breaks rule 1, catch the fall, no matter what. In fact, just plain support your partner, period. 

Like everything, it depends. 

The only hard and fast rule that can't be bent is: Don't fuck up and die.

Eric Craig wrote:

What about leading before being put on belay? I have done plenty of that too. Neither leading or following before being put on belay is neccesarily a big deal, and neither is exactly soloing either. It all depends on the complete situation. Neither of them is appropriate for a guiding situation however. 

Back in the DARK AGES, before every El Cap route had every belay equipped with multiple big honken bolts (yeah I know that's an exaggeration), in my crowd it was common for the second to start moving up the aid placements while the leader was still leading,  follower cleaning as he went. You might have a half dozen placements cleaned by the time the leader was tied off. I would just muscle the haul bag up as I went. We didn't bring a hotel room with a fully stocked bar with us. 

I am not recommending these things. Attitudes were different. We generally had about 2 rules. 1. Don't fall.  2. If your partner breaks rule 1, catch the fall, no matter what. In fact, just plain support your partner, period. 

Your telling us that you led with the haul bag hanging off you?

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Your telling us that you led with the haul bag hanging off you?

No. As a follower start cleaning an aid pitch before the leader finishes leading.

Step 1, move yourself onto the 1st placement, 2,  move the bag up, 3, clean the anchor. Repeat until the leader is done. Leader takes the bag, you slap on your jumars and then everything is "normal". 

I think my above post states this. Just less detail.

Leading with (even the little haul bags we used to take) the bag hanging on you is unthinkable. Even following is. Although sometimes the exit is best done with the follower WEARING the bag, just climbing normal,  with a belay. The top of the Salathe, West Buttress( Lurking Fear), SFWC maybe even the top couple of pitches. Don't remember exactly. 

One of you (the "ground fall" one) is talking about a scenario where the belayer is on the ground.  The other ("remove a few pieces from the anchor" one) is talking about a belay stance on a multi pitch climb.  Probably.  

Depending on how far up the leader's first piece is, you might be able to remove it while you are still anchored in (in the multi pitch scenario),  

Eric Craig wrote:

No. As a follower start cleaning an aid pitch before the leader finishes leading.

Step 1, move yourself onto the 1st placement, 2,  move the bag up, 3, clean the anchor. Repeat until the leader is done. Leader takes the bag, you slap on your jumars and then everything is "normal". 

I think my above post states this. Just less detail.

Leading with (even the little haul bags we used to take) the bag hanging on you is unthinkable. Even following is. Except for the exit of some routes at the top. Sometimes the exit is best done with the follower WEARING the bag, just climbing normal,  with a belay.

So your saying the second “ moved the bag up”  gear placement to gear placement?

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

So your saying the second “ moved the bag up”  gear placement to gear placement?

Yes. I can understand your questioning that. But when your single haul bag weighs maybe 50# at most, at the bottom, it is doable. Not even that hard. Think Metolius Quarter Dome size haul bag, for 2 people on a 4 day El Cap route. 3 gallons water. 10# food. Down jacket, a cagoule, and a coated nylon "pied d'elephant" per person, for sleeping. That's about it. 

Again, I am not recommending these things. Some changes have been definitely for the better. 

It's normal if the terrain allows. Are you ok with doing this on the 1st pitch? Depending on terrain, is doing it on the nth pitch really different?

You're ok with partially tearing down the anchor, but some people would call you crazy for that. It's certainly not what you would tell a beginner to do.

But if it's a nice ledge why not completely tear down the anchor? You're now standing on a ledge without a belay, why not climb up the 15' of 4th class to another ledge?

As a belayer I definitely appreciate not having to immediately pull 15' of rope through the device just for you run up the start of the pitch (probably with a loop of slack because you didn't actually need a belay for it).

You would never explicitly tell somebody to do this, and I have no idea about the linked accident. But the idea of "I'm going to solo this 15' to save time" is something climbers do literally all the time and this scenario isn't really that different.

Not a good idea.  Maybe the anchors aren't set.  Maybe the belay isn't on.  Just don't do it.

Austin Donisan wrote:

It's normal if the terrain allows. Are you ok with doing this on the 1st pitch? Depending on terrain, is doing it on the nth pitch really different?

You're ok with partially tearing down the anchor, but some people would call you crazy for that. It's certainly not what you would tell a beginner to do.

But if it's a nice ledge why not completely tear down the anchor? You're now standing on a ledge without a belay, why not climb up the 15' of 4th class to another ledge?

As a belayer I definitely appreciate not having to immediately pull 15' of rope through the device just for you run up the start of the pitch (probably with a loop of slack because you didn't actually need a belay for it).

You would never explicitly tell somebody to do this, and I have no idea about the linked accident. But the idea of "I'm going to solo this 15' to save time" is something climbers do literally all the time and this scenario isn't really that different.

agreed

Austin Donisan wrote:

It's normal if the terrain allows. Are you ok with doing this on the 1st pitch? Depending on terrain, is doing it on the nth pitch really different?

200 foot rope, 100 foot pitch.  15 ' solo from the ground with no belay = 15' fall if.  On pitch n >1, 15' solo  = 115' fall. So yes, could be different.

I don't encourage it, but in a multi-pitch situation in which I was waiting to follow and I was standing on a huge ledge and there was a gear anchor to clean, I have cleaned the anchor and even made an easy move or two, just out of impatience/desire to move. But I've hoped my partner wouldn't notice on the few occasions that I did this, because I knew it was kinda dumb.