Starting with drytooling rather than ice

Is beginning with drytooling on top rope a bad idea compared to starting on ice? I currently live in Florida, but hope to leave in a couple years, and would really like to have some skills necessary to get into alpine ice for mountaineering objectives, assuming I do get to get on ice before those. 

I’ve pretty much been the sole route developer in my area, putting up various top rope routes, so I’m not super concerned about damaging rock.

How is drytooling with tools that don’t have offset handles, like a BD Viper, Petzl Quark, Singing Rock Bandit, etc? I’ve seen some people very much recommend against it, but I tend to see them come up for sale on MP for much more affordable prices than more aggressive tools and they seem like they’d be better for my later goals, but I suppose I should instead buy for the purposes I’d be using them for now.

I was hoping to get up to North Carolina for some ice but my schedule unfortunately did not line up, maybe next season.

Edit:

For building home walls, I know many use plywood, at least for rock climbing. I’ve seen ice/drytooling competition walls using plywood, but mostly for foot placements. Can plywood be used for swinging tools into, or is there no replacement for swinging like you would on ice? I’ve seen other designs like Will Gadd’s plice but nothing like what I described.

I'll make an imperfect analogy: dry tooling to prep for ice climbing is like climbing limestone pockets to prepare for crack climbing. It will help, but it's not the same. No reason you can't climb easier dry tooling with quarks or similar tools. No need to start with one or the other. Go for it. 

Also, don't go to NC for ice. Go somewhere more reliable... NH, Quebec, Minnesota, CO, MT, Alberta, etc.

Getting good and confident on ice for alpine adventures is mostly about understanding how to read ice and feel your feet and tools (well... and the suffering...). That kind of thing can only be done through lots and lots of time on ice. Honestly, almost everything you'll climb single pitching will be steeper than what you'd be looking at in mountaineering, but so much of ice is just about being efficient and confident. None of this has anything to do with dry tooling, other than sometimes an alpine route requires some mixed technique. 

To that end... drytool cragging also often has little to do with alpine mixed. Alpine mixed tends to be lower angle, scratchy, chossy, thin, and frankly kinda spooky. My experience as the M/D grades get higher, the more positive the hooks and feet are and the movement is much more physical. I personally have more headgames on a M2-3 route with a dusting of snow covering stuff, occasional turf sticks, and nuts and cams than a M/D6-7 with big moves and bolts. To your other question... those tools are ideal for lower angle mixed/dry, and what you'd want on an alpine route. Not great on steep stuff, but I wouldn't run out an get new tools in your position.

Spopepro O. wrote:

To that end... drytool cragging also often has little to do with alpine mixed. Alpine mixed tends to be lower angle, scratchy, chossy, thin, and frankly kinda spooky. My experience as the M/D grades get higher, the more positive the hooks and feet are and the movement is much more physical. I personally have more headgames on a M2-3 route with a dusting of snow covering stuff, occasional turf sticks, and nuts and cams than a M/D6-7 with big moves and bolts. To your other question... those tools are ideal for lower angle mixed/dry, and what you'd want on an alpine route. Not great on steep stuff, but I wouldn't run out an get new tools in your position.

I don't think the OP is talking about D6/7 pitches? Given he is in Florida, no reason he can't put a TR on dirty 5.5-5.8 slab. Obviously lots of other things to learn, but he might as well do what he can with where he is. You can TR D2-5 and get a good feel for what you are talking about. 

If you're psyched, go get it!

Spopepro O. wrote:

Getting good and confident on ice for alpine adventures is mostly about understanding how to read ice and feel your feet and tools (well... and the suffering...). That kind of thing can only be done through lots and lots of time on ice. Honestly, almost everything you'll climb single pitching will be steeper than what you'd be looking at in mountaineering, but so much of ice is just about being efficient and confident. None of this has anything to do with dry tooling, other than sometimes an alpine route requires some mixed technique. 

To that end... drytool cragging also often has little to do with alpine mixed. Alpine mixed tends to be lower angle, scratchy, chossy, thin, and frankly kinda spooky. My experience as the M/D grades get higher, the more positive the hooks and feet are and the movement is much more physical. I personally have more headgames on a M2-3 route with a dusting of snow covering stuff, occasional turf sticks, and nuts and cams than a M/D6-7 with big moves and bolts. To your other question... those tools are ideal for lower angle mixed/dry, and what you'd want on an alpine route. Not great on steep stuff, but I wouldn't run out an get new tools in your position.

Unluckily there is a lot of chossy terrible rock in Florida, sounds similar to the alpine stuff you described.

I understand that ice is the best way to get into ice but I was more wondering about how much the core stuff like moving under tools and other foundational movement/form skills are transferable between dry tooling and proper ice.

In terms of learning about ice, I’ve already been reading through the Freedom of the Hills 8th Edition, would the Art of Ice Climbing book by Blue Ice be a good, more ice focused supplement, or would the updated Will Gadd book be worth the wait? I’m sure the best way to learn would be with a more experienced person, and hopefully I can do that if I ever get to an area that has actual ice climbing, but for now all I can do is read books and watch videos about it.

Branan Andreu wrote:

I understand that ice is the best way to get into ice but I was more wondering about how much the core stuff like moving under tools and other foundational movement/form skills are transferable between dry tooling and proper ice.

That's exactly where the cross-over benefit is.

Check out Gadds' 9 part video on ice climbing.

Sam Bedell wrote:

I'll make an imperfect analogy: dry tooling to prep for ice climbing is like climbing limestone pockets to prepare for crack climbing. It will help, but it's not the same. No reason you can't climb easier dry tooling with quarks or similar tools. No need to start with one or the other. Go for it. 

Also, don't go to NC for ice. Go somewhere more reliable... NH, Quebec, Minnesota, CO, MT, Alberta, etc.

Why not go to NC for learning on ice? I understand the places you mentioned are much more established than what’s in NC but I don’t have a whole lot of time to go to any of those, which would only really be made worthwhile by a weeklong stay, until summer. I could somewhat easily pop up to NC for 4 days including travel and get a decent amount of climbing in. Maybe I could get down to Patagonia this summer and go with a guide or fest but that’s unlikely. 

How is the fall risk while 80-90 degree drytooling compared to ice? It seems like crampons wouldn’t get caught quite as much since they won’t sink in but I wouldn’t know.

You were pretty much spot on in your assumptions about rock in Florida in your other comment, except that it’s not super slabby since most of it is exposed from quarry operations.

As in my response to the other person who commented, do you have any suggestions about books/websites/videos to learn more about ice, evaluating it, etc? I’m currently thinking about getting the Blue Ice book but I’m open to any recommendations. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

How is the fall risk while 80-90 degree drytooling compared to ice? It seems like crampons wouldn’t get caught quite as much since they won’t sink in but I wouldn’t know.

You were pretty much spot on in your assumptions about rock in Florida in your other comment, except that it’s not super slabby since most of it is exposed from quarry operations.

As in my response to the other person who commented, do you have any suggestions about books/websites/videos to learn more about ice, evaluating it, etc? I’m currently thinking about getting the Blue Ice book but I’m open to any recommendations. 

Yes, you’re less likely to catch a point and end up with tib-fib fractures. You’re still falling with knives on your feet, but it’s safer for sure. The thing about it… drytooling happens in crampons more or less due to ice/mixed tradition (although some routes do call for tiny edges and cracks.)  It’s not uncommon to leave the crampons off if it feels better or you’re worried about falling on lower angle stuff. There’s no real rules.

It’s really tough to learn about ice remotely. Gadd for sure has the most useful and accurate writing about it (and it’s probably the best because he is most direct about the necessity for experience and how variable things are). You can learn the theory behind tension/compression (which isn’t entirely different than the avy education about snowpacks), temperature and temp changes, sun and wind and so on, and it’s all a little helpful. But it’s not going to help at all with what a good kick or stick feels like and how that changes based on conditions. It’s an unsatisfying answer, but you’re probably best off just practicing alpine rope work, getting fit, and getting strong and learning about ice when you get there. It’s not a discipline to rush. 

Branan Andreu wrote:

Why not go to NC for learning on ice? I understand the places you mentioned are much more established than what’s in NC but I don’t have a whole lot of time to go to any of those, which would only really be made worthwhile by a weeklong stay, until summer. I could somewhat easily pop up to NC for 4 days including travel and get a decent amount of climbing in. Maybe I could get down to Patagonia this summer and go with a guide or fest but that’s unlikely. 

How is the fall risk while 80-90 degree drytooling compared to ice? It seems like crampons wouldn’t get caught quite as much since they won’t sink in but I wouldn’t know.

You were pretty much spot on in your assumptions about rock in Florida in your other comment, except that it’s not super slabby since most of it is exposed from quarry operations.

As in my response to the other person who commented, do you have any suggestions about books/websites/videos to learn more about ice, evaluating it, etc? I’m currently thinking about getting the Blue Ice book but I’m open to any recommendations. 

To be fair I have never ice climbed in NC, but my understanding is that it just doesn't have the most reliable and consistent ice. Florida, being a destination it is easy to fly to lots of places so I thought you could maybe get a direct flight somewhere... SLC, Calgary, etc. I realize this requires a bigger budget than driving to NC for the weekend. I guess if you have good intel that it is in, you might as well.

I wouldn't want to take any big fall with crampons on unless it was overhanging. Closely bolted or TR, no reason to injure yourself just to say you redpointed Florida's first D4, all 20 feet of it.

For movement you can also climb on trees (if no one cares about it, maybe something invasive?), or on chain link fences like a baseball diamond (I found this great for ice specific movement like practicing my A frame and when to rest). 

I haven't read the blue ice book but would second the rec for Will Gadd's video series.

I mean if hes having fun why not? 

Spopepro O. wrote:

It’s not uncommon to leave the crampons off if it feels better or you’re worried about falling on lower angle stuff. There’s no real rules.

It’s really tough to learn about ice remotely. Gadd for sure has the most useful and accurate writing about it (and it’s probably the best because he is most direct about the necessity for experience and how variable things are). You can learn the theory behind tension/compression (which isn’t entirely different than the avy education about snowpacks), temperature and temp changes, sun and wind and so on, and it’s all a little helpful. But it’s not going to help at all with what a good kick or stick feels like and how that changes based on conditions. It’s an unsatisfying answer, but you’re probably best off just practicing alpine rope work, getting fit, and getting strong and learning about ice when you get there. It’s not a discipline to rush. 

I’ll probably end up using rock shoes while getting used to hanging on tools and then move up to crampons and get a feel for what that is like once I feel confident with tools.

My hope for the learning remotely wasn’t to rush into ice climbing but rather to set myself up with some more basic knowledge that could be better built upon later, with the more typical progression of ice climbing (top roping for a while, following for a while, then maybe leading?). For climbing in general I tend to try to learn as much as I can given my current situation to hopefully get the actual experience from it sometime. I could definitely see the danger in getting overconfident simply from reading up on it though so thank you for pointing that out.

My recommendation would be to build a home training wall on plywood and just focus on building sport specific strength and endurance, while you are in Florida.  Don’t bother trying to practice swinging or kicking technique, until you get on real ice.  Kicking and swinging into wood can be fun, but it is not an effective substitute for training on real ice.  Just accept that you are going to have to spend some time leaning to ice climbing on real ice.

Train with whichever tools you plan on using, but make sure that you are actually getting tools that are optimized for the type of climbing you want to do now.  Any tools that you intend use for “moderate” drytooling should have two hand positions that allow for stable hooking on flat edges.  Quarks fulfills that requirement, but many ice tools without a recessed handle do not (at least not with the stock picks).