Red Rocks Fatality

Robert Hiett wrote:

Hello mountain project. I am the romantic partner of the deceased. I would like to start by saying that they were truly an amazing person. Anyone who knows them knows how much joy they brought other people and the impact they had on our local climbing community.

In regards to the incident itself. This is a truly tragic accident. The climber had over 10 years of experience. Although i was not there at the time of the accident. I can assure everyone speculating this accident is no more then an overlook/misstep and it cost the person their life. This type of accident can happen to any one of us when we are not 100% focused on the task infront of us. What was going in there head we will never know. What I can say to everyone is that please DOUBLE CHECK/triple check your system. Of course this incident is preventable etc... It is the type of accident were you don't think it will happen to you until it does. I thought they would be coming home this weekend. I am truly crushed. 

I don't think there is any benefit in discussing this topic further. All of these systems are great and the deceased knew them.

I hope the biggest take away from this is that please don't become complacent, loose focus, etc.. This could happen to anyone of us we all make mistakes none of us are perfect. They chose to make one at the wrong time and it cost them there life.

My condolences go out to there family. They are so crushed. If anyone would like to donate to the family to assist with there funeral feel free to contact me. 

I’m so sorry for your loss. She sounds like a wonderful person.

And yes, even very experienced people can make mistakes. None of us are exempt, no matter how much we learn, and how carefully we try to double-check everything. 

May she rest in peace. 

Robert Hiett wrote:

Hello mountain project. I am the romantic partner of the deceased. I would like to start by saying that they were truly an amazing person. Anyone who knows them knows how much joy they brought other people and the impact they had on our local climbing community.

In regards to the incident itself. This is a truly tragic accident. The climber had over 10 years of experience. Although i was not there at the time of the accident. I can assure everyone speculating this accident is no more then an overlook/misstep and it cost the person their life. This type of accident can happen to any one of us when we are not 100% focused on the task infront of us. What was going in there head we will never know. What I can say to everyone is that please DOUBLE CHECK/triple check your system. Of course this incident is preventable etc... It is the type of accident were you don't think it will happen to you until it does. I thought they would be coming home this weekend. I am truly crushed. 

I don't think there is any benefit in discussing this topic further. All of these systems are great and the deceased knew them.

I hope the biggest take away from this is that please don't become complacent, loose focus, etc.. This could happen to anyone of us we all make mistakes none of us are perfect. They chose to make one at the wrong time and it cost them there life.

My condolences go out to there family. They are so crushed. If anyone would like to donate to the family to assist with there funeral feel free to contact me. 

Sorry for your loss, Robert. A great post and stark reminder to stay attentive throughout the entire climbing process. I agree that there is not much benefit to discussing this and would be wise to lock the thread at this point

Bruno Schull wrote:

@ J Macgall.  

With respect, your points suggest that you may not understand how this accident took place.  

If the details are correct, the climber was using a carabiner block to descend on a single strand with a grigri.  The climber made the simple mistake of loading the wrong strand, not the blocked strand but the pull strand.  When they weighted the rope, the rope simply pulled through the anchor and they fell to the ground. 

The idea that this could have been prevented by using a fireman's belay does not make sense.  Another climber would have had to descend first, be at the base of the climb, and hold the load strand as a counterweight to the pull strand...which would be impossible and illogical.  That's not how a fireman's belay works.  

The idea that this could have been prevented by using a prussik also does not make sense.  When descending a single strand with a grigri, it is very rare to have a prussik back up.   I don't think it would be practical, if even possible. 

The Alpine Savy article, linked early in this thread and below, should be the starting point for anybody curious about this technique, and how this accident could have been prevented.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/rope-blocks-101

What he is insinuating is fixing the blocked strand from below, similar to how a fireman's works, but rather than just holding it, attaching it firmly using perhaps a knot or attached prusik cord. Similarly one could fix the pull strand from above using a prusik to the anchor to be removed by the last person down. In this way all team members would have a hard fixed system in the event someone raps the wrong line. 

This imo just points out the inherent weakness in using this setup and the tried and true mantra of test while tethered wins out 

Bruno Schull wrote:

@ J Macgall.  

With respect, your points suggest that you may not understand how this accident took place.  

If the details are correct, the climber was using a carabiner block to descend on a single strand with a grigri.  The climber made the simple mistake of loading the wrong strand, not the blocked strand but the pull strand.  When they weighted the rope, the rope simply pulled through the anchor and they fell to the ground. 

The idea that this could have been prevented by using a fireman's belay does not make sense.  Another climber would have had to descend first, be at the base of the climb, and hold the load strand as a counterweight to the pull strand...which would be impossible and illogical.  That's not how a fireman's belay works.  

The idea that this could have been prevented by using a prussik also does not make sense.  When descending a single strand with a grigri, it is very rare to have a prussik back up.   I don't think it would be practical, if even possible. 

The Alpine Savy article, linked early in this thread and below, should be the starting point for anybody curious about this technique, and how this accident could have been prevented.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/rope-blocks-101

I see you do not understand my comment or explanation. If the rap line was fixed from below by the other climber (similar to a fireman's belay, but fixed with a prussik/other fixing, the belay line may/would not have pulled through when the pull line was weighted. I know that is not what is it for or how it is used and said as such. I meant to supply feedback to an earlier comment regarding fireman's belay where the commenter was chastised for being wrong. I was showing how it could have been a backup. 

J Macgall wrote:

I see you do not understand my comment or explanation. If the rap line was fixed from below by the other climber (similar to a fireman's belay, but fixed with a prussik/other fixing, the belay line may/would not have pulled through when the pull line was weighted. I know that is not what is it for or how it is used and said as such. I meant to supply feedback to an earlier comment regarding fireman's belay where the commenter was chastised for being wrong. I was showing how it could have been a backup. 

It's always interesting to hypothesize different situations, but this is illogical. 

Does the first climber to descend, who then fixes the ropes in some way, use an ATC?  If so, it would make more sense to pre rig the ATC above to block the ropes, and have the first climber descend with  grigri, as suggested by others. 

If the first climber down does not rap with an ATC on both strands...then this climber faces the same risk that lead to this accident. 

I think this line of reasoning strays from good sense.  

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Sorry for your loss, Robert. A great post and stark reminder to stay attentive throughout the entire climbing process. I agree that there is not much benefit to discussing this and would be wise to lock the thread at this point

There is absolutely a benefit to keeping this thread and similar threads open, and allowing discussion to happen.  That's the point of the accidents and injuries thread. 

As many of the comments here show, there are plenty of readers who do not understand this technique, much less how it went wrong so easily. 

Has all this information been discussed before?  Yes.  Are there good resources people can use to educate themselves?  Yes.

But, this the kind of information that new climbers need to hear, and that all climber need to be reminded of over and over.

Keep the thread open, keep the discussion going.  

It could prevent a simialr accident in the future.  

https://www.climbing.com/news/climber-dies-rappelling-accident-red-rock/

This article provides more detail on the accident.

Anna Brown wrote:

https://www.climbing.com/news/climber-dies-rappelling-accident-red-rock/

This article provides more detail on the accident.

Thanks for posting. From the article: 

"De Luca said he was later told that Manalese had a SPOT satellite communicator on her person, which broke in the fall, but that her stranded climbing partner did not have one, and had no cell service to call for rescue. With that in mind, had De Luca’s party not been in the canyon, Manalese’s partner may have been stranded overnight on the wall, in temperatures below freezing. While coordinating with other climbers to help him retrieve his stuck ropes, De Luca said that to his knowledge no other parties visited the canyon for the following three days."

^ The extreme irony of posting a meme about people saying unhelpful things rather than condolences or a new insight. You are exactly the type of person you're trying to disparage and you've chosen an awful thread to make this little scene. 

Something ddriver mentioned is the sat com device. It raises the question of whether both partners should be carrying a SPOT, inReach, etc. - from my own experience and as far as I've seen, generally only one person is carrying a satellite communicator but this does make me think about when catastrophe happens and the person with the communicator is hurt, etc. I'm always the person carrying the inReach when I climb and I have to imagine most parties do not both carry them

Bruno Schull wrote:

There is absolutely a benefit to keeping this thread and similar threads open, and allowing discussion to happen.  That's the point of the accidents and injuries thread. 

As many of the comments here show, there are plenty of readers who do not understand this technique, much less how it went wrong so easily. 

Has all this information been discussed before?  Yes.  Are there good resources people can use to educate themselves?  Yes.

But, this the kind of information that new climbers need to hear, and that all climber need to be reminded of over and over.

Keep the thread open, keep the discussion going.  

It could prevent a simialr accident in the future.  

Please refer to meme above.

For realisies, I see your argument, and they were valid 3 pages ago, but at this point here we are creating arguments and not discussing correct procedures (by the way there are other threads for that). If someone genuinely cares about not making these mistakes and learning new techniques then they should seek a mentor climber, peruse appropriate threads, or even create a thread asking for specific advice. This is a place to discuss what happened and why. That has already been addressed….and then some. At this point any safety procedures being discussed aren’t even directly related to the incident at hand and should be discussed separately. 

Heart breaking tragedy. RIP to the fallen climber. After my own close calls in the alpine and climbing long multi-pitch routes, and these type of occurrences happening regularly, I decided to go the route of single pitch climbing and bouldering. Climbing is inherently dangerous, but you mitigate a lot of the risk by not climbing multi-pitch at all.

Rappelling is a single person activity. You should not need anyone to check your set up. You should not need anyone to give you a fireman's belay. Both of these are Nice-to-have's, but if you can't rappel completely on your own, you can't multipitch safely. Learning how to rappel is simple and can be learned quickly. 

99% of the time: 

1) double strand rappel

2) ATC or double barrel tube device

3) extended device (sling, PAS, whatever)

4) prussik.

5) Test rap set up while tethered before committing. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

It's always interesting to hypothesize different situations, but this is illogical. 

Does the first climber to descend, who then fixes the ropes in some way, use an ATC?  If so, it would make more sense to pre rig the ATC above to block the ropes, and have the first climber descend with  grigri, as suggested by others. 

If the first climber down does not rap with an ATC on both strands...then this climber faces the same risk that lead to this accident. 

I think this line of reasoning strays from good sense.  

I think they were trying to say that you could fix both strands at the top, such as with a figure eight on a bight, one person raps down on either strand with a grigri, since they are both fixed. Then the person at the bottom could fix both strands (taking care to minimize slack in the system), similarly by tying a knot and clipping it to one of the next rappel anchors. The next rappeller could also rap either strand with a grigri, because the two strands being fixed at the bottom will provide a counterbalance.

This is just my interpretation of the comment and one feasible way I could see it being done.

If they still wanted to use the reepschnur/biner block system, I think he’s saying that you could fix both strands at the bottom, and keep that setup in place, or just fix the load strand, in case you accidentally rap on the pull strand it will counterbalance the pull strand so that you can’t pull it all the way through.

But at any rate these options are complicating the system. Just saying that they’re not illogical in that they would work, and don’t require an ATC.

Gut wrenching tragedy and condolences to all of her loved ones  . She had such a positive energy at our local gym and will be sorely missed. 

I want to be as respectful as possible and so please note that I am not implying what I'm about to share is what happened in this tragedy. I've witnessed a similar near biner block rap accident in the past and feel compelled to provide another safety angle focused on psychology that has not already been discussed at great length. 

Sometimes when you're a guide and/or very experienced trad climber that is passionate and proficient at all sorts of technical systems, we may inadvertently assume (via our major stoke) that any new trad climber we are taking on an outing can quickly understand and master systems we are teaching. When a new trad climber is learning, they need to focus on doing a few things flawlessly and not be overwhelmed with too many technical system variations. If they're a certain kind of learner like myself, they'll likely need to also study/practice at home by themselves and drill certain anchor building, rapping techniques, etc. over and over until they have a few go to systems they can rely on in a pickle.

I've frequently witnessed experienced climbers and guides introduce a new technique to the less experienced climber with the expectation that they will implement that technique that same day. In fact, even as a relatively experienced climber myself, I've had a local guide in a foreign country I was visiting insist I lower off a sport climb anchor with only chains (no mussy hooks) using his technique that I had never practiced before because he felt it was the superior way. I ended up being just fine and learning another method because I had a solid base of experience already on a low stress chill sport climb. However, reflecting back I can't help wonder that if this were one of my past type 2 alpine adventures when I was mentally and physically at my limit, I could very easily have made a mistake and would likely need to resort back to the system I had down pat via muscle memory and not a newly learned system that would require me to be in a very lucid (non-flustered) state of thinking. 

Additionally I've noticed in my own experiences that when you've made one simple mistake already (e.g. going slightly off route, having difficulty finding the rap station, not wearing enough layers and getting cold, getting your ropes stuck, misjudging the length needed from one rap station to another, etc.) you are more likely to make another mistake because you enter into a flustered state of mind exactly when you need to be in a calmer creative state of mind to assess and solve a new problem that you were not expecting. It's in those pressure testing moments that the only thing you can reliably execute safely are the systems that you've already drilled to the point of muscle memory. It's very easy to go into a blanking out state of mind with newly learned techniques when pressure tested in this environment. 

In summary:

• Keep it simple. Assess your less experienced partner's skills and don't have them implement a new technique on game day. Let them stick to what they know down pat and leave the fun variations that you prefer as homework to be practiced at home.
• Assess your psychological state. If you've made a mistake already and are compromised (like when I once wim hof'ed it and was crazy cold on a pitch), acknowledge your condition with your partner and go into a survival state of mind being extra cautious knowing that you are more likely to make another mistake.

Stephen, totally agree with your post. 

Some of these systems such as two climbers rapping simultaneously, using a knot block to rap on a single line, etc., which are taught as being faster or more efficient, are not suitable for beginners because they are unnecessarily complex. They also seem to cause a disproportionate share of accidents in our community. 

I would extend this last statement and say that these complicated systems are inappropriate for every-day use. I know that climbing media and such would have us believe that we always need to be going faster and lighter. But especially if you're cragging, is the time saved by simul-rapping with two climbers really worth the increased complexity compared to one climber at a time??

K.I.S.S. !!

It's good to know these systems in a pinch, for when going faster or lighter is actually safer. But I believe that guides and the climbing media teach these type of complicated strategies too freely, without the caveat that they are more complicated, and therefore may carry greater risk. I understand that not all guides do this, and that I am generalizing. This is also not any kind of statement about this particular accident. 

Climbing is always dangerous. Best to not forget that. 

This accident is fully related to the use of a GriGri for descent.   With traditional 2-strand rappels, you don't have to figure out which side of the rope system is the correct side.   

As someone who has gri gri rappelled a LOT and now is my preferred method with a single or double ropes, here are some thoughts for people rappelling in this way. But before this, lets talk about why someone would choose a gri gri rappel.  

Why do this in the first place? 

• Leading the rappels on a gri gri allows you to focus on only dealing with one strand of the rope. 
  • If you choose to take both, you can "pull the other strand" down as you go off of the rap station so there's less fuss to deal with. 
• Easier to ascent and hang around on the rope to deal with stuck/hung ropes. 
• Smoother rappel (for me) 
• Theoretically less failure modes than an ATC with a backup (more on that in a bit)  
  • only loading a single strand
  • no friction hitch needed
• Using a grigri for belay and rappel simplifies my systems 

Methods of rappelling with a gri gri 

• Carabiner blocking or knot blocking (as shown in this thread) is a completely viable method and is a good tool to have in the chest. However, there are other methods to be aware of. 
• I've often encountered a climbing partner that is unfamiliar or uncomfortable grigri rappeling (both absolutely OK) 
  • In that scenario, one of the best ways to rappel is for the ATC to load and pre-rig completely with a third hand (pre-rig meaning set everything up but stay at the rap stance) and have the gri gri rappel on a single strand below the ATC. In that scenario there is no knot or carabiner blocking the rappel to get snagged on a pull, and the ropes can get set by the gri gri rappel. 
• Unlike the image shown in this thread. You can clove hitch a carabiner to the middle of the rope and have that block instead of a larger setup. The thinner profile mean less likely to snag. 
• Simul rapping is a whole other can of worms, but can be used well if the terrain permits. 
• In a single strand setup, the first person down can have the rope completely fixed to the anchor with a clove or overhand so there is no possibility for rope slip or wrong side rappel (also useful in larger groups, fix each strand and send two down at once) This means only the last person should be at risk. 
  • The benefit of this is that if someone is pre-rigged they dont get pulled around when the person rapping weights the rope. 

All rappel methods have failure modes. ATC accidents have happened where someone thought both strands were clipped into the main carabiner, but only one was clipped, and when weighted they fell to the end of the rope. Accidents can happen with any system, and IMO one method isn't safer than the other. 

All that said, agreed with everyone above that you should always weight your rappel before unclipping your anchor tether to check the system. 

Also I'd highly recommend Any Kirkpatrick's book DOWN to anyone interested in getting deep in the weeds on rappeling systems and protocls. I've learned a ton from it. 

Alan L wrote:

As someone who has gri gri rappelled a LOT and now is my preferred method with a single or double ropes, here are some thoughts for people rappelling in this way. But before this, lets talk about why someone would choose a gri gri rappel.  

Why do this in the first place? 

• Leading the rappels on a gri gri allows you to focus on only dealing with one strand of the rope. 
  • If you choose to take both, you can "pull the other strand" down as you go off of the rap station so there's less fuss to deal with. 
• Easier to ascent and hang around on the rope to deal with stuck/hung ropes. 
• Smoother rappel (for me) 
• Theoretically less failure modes than an ATC with a backup (more on that in a bit)  
  • only loading a single strand
  • no friction hitch needed
• Using a grigri for belay and rappel simplifies my systems 

Methods of rappelling with a gri gri 

• Carabiner blocking or knot blocking (as shown in this thread) is a completely viable method and is a good tool to have in the chest. However, there are other methods to be aware of. 
• I've often encountered a climbing partner that is unfamiliar or uncomfortable grigri rappeling (both absolutely OK) 
  • In that scenario, one of the best ways to rappel is for the ATC to load and pre-rig completely with a third hand (pre-rig meaning set everything up but stay at the rap stance) and have the gri gri rappel on a single strand below the ATC. In that scenario there is no knot or carabiner blocking the rappel to get snagged on a pull, and the ropes can get set by the gri gri rappel. 
• Unlike the image shown in this thread. You can clove hitch a carabiner to the middle of the rope and have that block instead of a larger setup. The thinner profile mean less likely to snag. 
• Simul rapping is a whole other can of worms, but can be used well if the terrain permits. 
• In a single strand setup, the first person down can have the rope completely fixed to the anchor with a clove or overhand so there is no possibility for rope slip or wrong side rappel (also useful in larger groups, fix each strand and send two down at once) This means only the last person should be at risk. 
  • The benefit of this is that if someone is pre-rigged they dont get pulled around when the person rapping weights the rope. 

All rappel methods have failure modes. ATC accidents have happened where someone thought both strands were clipped into the main carabiner, but only one was clipped, and when weighted they fell to the end of the rope. Accidents can happen with any system, and IMO one method isn't safer than the other. 

All that said, agreed with everyone above that you should always weight your rappel before unclipping your anchor tether to check the system. 

Also I'd highly recommend Any Kirkpatrick's book DOWN to anyone interested in getting deep in the weeds on rappeling systems and protocls. I've learned a ton from it. 

Do you see how complicated this is? Really opens up the opportunity for mistakes. Please do not take this advice.

grug g wrote:

Do you see how complicated this is? Really opens up the opportunity for mistakes. Please do not take this advice.

it's really not that complicated. it also doesn't look like you have that much experience doing long routes with lots of rappelling, so maybe lay off the bold black and white "do this don't do this" type advice? everything has trade offs and as people gain more experience find systems that work for them and their partners that meet their criteria for safety, simplicity and efficiency, there really is no one-size-fits-all solution. I use different techniques and approaches for anchoring, placing lead gear and descending depending on the route, weather and who I'm climbing with all the time.

grug g wrote:

Do you see how complicated this is? Really opens up the opportunity for mistakes. Please do not take this advice.

Its only complicated if you dont take the time to learn. Obviously writing this out in a way that is hopefully understandable is going to appear more complicated that showing someone in person.

Also pretty clearly said: 

here are some thoughts for people rappelling in this way

Not trying to convince anyone to change their ways.