To Knot or Not?

I've read tons of posts about the dangers of knots at the end of ropes when rapping. I was taught the dangers of rapping off ends and that knots save lives. Is there a preferred alternative? (PFA)

Overhand on a bight, clipped to your harness

dosent it create a massive tangle rapping 60m or 70m with both ends of the ropes tied together and tied to you?

Adam B wrote:

Overhand on a bight, clipped to your harness

I use a clove hitch. That way when you unclip there is no knot to be arrantly left in the rope, but same same.

Why does it have to be black and white? Can't we just embrace the glorious gray area of decision-making? Sometimes I knot, sometimes not; sometimes I clip the rope end to my gear loop and rappel with a giant loop skating on the smooth rock below me; and sometimes I go for the saddlebag carry. It’s about picking the best option for the situation, not sticking to some rigid rulebook.

Mei pronounced as May wrote:

Why does it have to be black and white? Can't we just embrace the glorious gray area of decision-making? Sometimes I knot, sometimes not; sometimes I clip the rope end to my gear loop and rappel with a giant loop skating on the smooth rock below me; and sometimes I go for the saddlebag carry. It’s about picking the best option for the situation, not sticking to some rigid rulebook.

Mei has it exactly right. Operating by rote is what is dangerous. Thinking each situation through (even if only briefly) is what is safe.

Mostly, no knots. And no, I don't want to live forever, either.

Mei is 100% correct.

It's strange you would hear a lot of don't put knots in, mostly it's do put them in because people rap off the end of their ropes (related is people cragging and belaying a route that is taller than half their rope and when they lower the rope goes through the belay device and the leaders decks, so put a knot in or tie into the other end). 

As mentioned, situationally dependent. 75% of the time I tie a barrel knot on each end of the rope (I don't tie them together so they can't untwist themselves as needed) and I always keep an eye on the rope below me as a rap. 20% of the time I use no knots (windy with places to get the rope caught) and I'm even more vigilant about keeping my eyes on the rope below me. 5% of the time I saddlebag carry (really windy, worth the extra time and effort to prevent a worse issue). I don't like having it hang in a big loop below me due to issues with it getting twisted up, or having the loop blow over and get stuck on something. I suppose at that point I could untie the ends and drop them and pull it through, but then I'm back to a method above.

Another vote for what Mei said.

One place where I’m pretty sure I knot all the time (can’t think of exceptions) is when sport climbing, even in the gym and no matter the length of the rope. I always close the system. I want that habit pattern. But this post was about knots in the rappel rope, so carry on…

I personally tie knots on every rappel. Plenty of experienced climbers have died from rapping off the end their rope.

My 4 rules of rappelling. 

1. Have a bomber anchor (back it up if necessary)
2. Back up your rappel (autoblock, etc.)
3. Weight the rappel before coming off the anchor
4. Tie knots on both ends of the rope 

If any of this is not possible or increases the risk of a situation, I make sure through thorough checking that everything is right.

Rappel accidents are catastrophic, you are 100% relying on your equipment and set up, take the time to do it right. 

Branon Rochelle wrote:

I've read tons of posts about the dangers of knots at the end of ropes when rapping. I was taught the dangers of rapping off ends and that knots save lives.

The word "dangers" here are being used differently.  For knots getting stuck when rapping, those are 99.9999% of the time fixable, they are typically an annoyance, sometimes a big one too, but not a life threatening danger.  Rapping off the end of a line is deadly, which is an actual danger.   

I cannot recall a single recent report in the AAC Accidents in North American Climbing publication were somebody died because their knots got stuck.  On the other hand, there are plenty of instances in the publications where people died from rapping off the end of their ropes.

If you rap face first you’ll see the rope ends coming, so no knot required 

Never tied a knot in the end of the rope, guess common sense told me that rapping off the end of the rope was not productive. 

Kevinmurray wrote:

Never tied a knot in the end of the rope, guess common sense told me that rapping off the end of the rope was not productive. 

That's like the guy that says, I've been driving for years without a seatbelt.

Kevinmurray wrote: Never tied a knot in the end of the rope, guess common sense told me that rapping off the end of the rope was not productive.

Some years ago, an experienced climber was knocked unconscious while rappelling without the use of a friction hitch backup or having knots in the end. She fell 1000’ to her death and slid into a crevasse. 

Pre-rigging can help a little. Only one strand needs to be knotted to close the system (for all but the final person), you you're reducing the risk of knots getting stuck but not the consequences. 

As stated already, clipping to oneself is an option, but it traps the twists in the rope. I usually unclip the bight from myself and let the twists spin off once I'm close to the end of the rap and am confident the rope won't get stuck. 

I personally think the consequences are high enough that I want to have a closed system 98% of the time. 

Here are some relevant threads worth reading (sorry for tooting my own horn): 

• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123874158/kirkpatricks-down-two-knots-of-note
• https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/126973944/stopper-knots-coming-untied-on-rappelwhen-weighted

As some people have said nuance exists and is essential to being an efficient and safe climber (and to leading a successful life). With that said, however, I believe that understanding nuance and acting accordingly is an advanced skill that comes in the mastery stage of a (set of) skill(s) rather than the learning stage. The learning stage is about "what" to do, mastery and nuance are about "how" and "why. 

If you don't understand the "how" and the "why," or don't want to spend the time thinking analytically and critically to understand the "how" and "why," then you should just stick to PBUSing with your GRIGRI, tying finishing knots above your figure 8 follow through, thinking bowlines are the devil, always tying "stopper" knots, and building anchors with a cordelette. This statement is not meant to be insulting or discredit any of those techniques: they're all perfectly viable and in my opinion great ways to learn/teach skills and mitigate risk.