Portaledge Discussion: Delta 2p vs Full Double D4

Hey all!
The title pretty much says it all. I'm about to bite the expensive bullet and get a D4 ledge (my first ledge).

With this being one of the most expensive things I'll own in my climbing career, I figured I would ask to make sure I've come to the right conclusion, which I believe is going to be the Full size D4.
While the Delta 2p seems to have great benefits:
1. Lighter
2. Easier to set up/tear down
3. awesome laying down belays to watch you climbed.
4. Stability.
5. Better at crowded belays (and sits very nicely next to the haul bag)
and more ...

It comes at the (large) disadvantage of being smaller than a full sized 2p.
especially from photos here: https://www.bigwalls.net/d4-delta2p.html it seems if two were to be on the ledge it would be a really tight squeeze.
and when comfortability on the ledge is one of the most important things, i have reached this conclusion

The delta 2p seems to be a great comfy roomy ledge for 1 person, but since it is a tight squeeze with 2 people on it, it's better to go with a full sized double ledge if you are only bringing one ledge up a wall for 2 people.

Does this conclusion seem accurate? What are peoples' "in the field" experience with the Delta 2p?

I used my partners delta2p for 2 nights on ten days after then used my A5 for 3 nights on Virginia. I haven’t used a D4 so I can’t exactly answer your questions but here are my thoughts.

I think the idea of the 2p was really cool and the smaller footprint is really nice but we slept head to head on the 2p as opposed to head to foot and there weren’t dividers so this made it seem a bit more crowded. Just something to consider.

The 2p was nice since it did almost “assemble itself” compared to having to fight the A5 but tensioning on the A5 was easier to me than the 2p. This may simply have been bc I was more used to the A5. This led me to have a more comfortable time sleeping on the A5 than the 2p.

I didn’t flag the 2p so I can’t speak on that or using it for a belay. We flagged the A5 and laying parallel to belay wasn’t bad but maybe being head out would be slightly better. IMO, the A5 was nicer for dinners/breakfasts since both people could sit with their backs against the wall and have space between them, that was a lot harder on the 2p.

cant comment on D4 vs 2p weight but the A5 is lighter than the 2p, at least without the fly.

Run out customs makes A5 ledges in the ~1700 ballpark I think which might be worth looking into. I’m curious to see what someone who has used a D4 has to say.

are you getting a new one? theres a D4 scam on mountain project that i unfortunately fell for along with some other people. be careful purchasing

I have the D4 and love it. It's tricky to setup & put away (at first), but I guess any ledge will be. Just make sure you practice it before getting on the wall. Things I love about the D4:

• Center divider with pockets for phone/headlamp/ etc. Even though I'm with my fiancé, it's nice to have the center divider to keep us from rolling into each other all night.
• Easy to adjust. The straps seem easy to to manipulate to level out the ledge.
• Setup/storage. Took some figuring out, but now that we have it dialed it's very easy and quick. Love the the ledge folds up into smaller bag, doesn't seem as awkward to handle as the longer metolius/ BD bags.

I tested both prototypes for Deucey in the field right from inception.  You've pretty much got it nailed above. You would think that the Delta2P would be better at tight and crowded belays, at least in theory.  In practice, this is not necessarily the case!  If you are stuck in a corner somewhere - like I was on Ned's Excellent Adventure - it can be almost impossible to get a good hang when you have pigs in the way, and the geometry is suboptimal.  So here I was stuck in a corner, wishing that I had brought my D4 instead of the Delta2P.  "Make a wish in one hand, take a shit in the other, and see which hand fills up first." 

On the other hand, the D4 will fit anywhere - any corner, up against a pig, and in a nice asymmetric hang whereby the inside straps are shortened and the outside straps are lengthened.  Funnily enough, good ol John Middendorf was somewhat aghast that I would suggest an asymmetric hang at a crowded belay, but this is what happens when you spend all your time in the laboratory [John] vs all of your time on the wall [me].  ;)

The Delta2P is too small for two men.  The D4 is a bit smaller than some other doubles, but its design is the best in the world.  There is a reason that Fabio Elli and I considered the D4 ledge to be one of the four great aid climbing innovations of the last twenty years when we wrote HOOKING UP.  One very cool thing about the D4 is that when you "flag" the ledge above your load [meaning you keep the ledge set up all the time instead of taking it apart and putting it back together every day], its round corners will help deflect your pigs around obstacles upon which your pigs would otherwise become stuck. Sounds counter-intuitive in theory, but it is definitely true. 

Having spent a couple weeks sleeping on the Delta2P and hundreds of nights on the D4, I will always recommend the D4 to anyone who wants to be comfortable, and isn't concerned about a few extra pounds of weight. 

Lmao never stop being awful to each other you two, it's very funny. 

Peter Zabrok wrote:

 I will always recommend the D4 to anyone who wants to be comfortable

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

I choose my Delta2P every time.

Well this is helpful. lol, I guess i just have pick which big wall forummer I like more.

I don't have as many nights on the wall as Kevin or Pete but love my Delta 2p origami ledge. For me, the pure joy of watching it set itself up overcomes the idiosyncracies of dialing in the hang. On that note, Deucey recommended connecting the ledge master point onto a sling up to the anchor for a better hang. And yes, clipping some webbing (or double-length sling) from the clip-in point in the middle of the bed to the master point prevents taco-ing against your homie. It is cozy but that is a feature not a bug for me ;)

As for getting the ledge back in the bag, just remember to fold starting from the wall side. I always forgot that. I have one of the O.G. tester bags, it fits in just fine, but it developed some wear points that had to be reinforced from the bars sticking out.

One of my long term goals is to bend up some aluminum and see how strong a resin-printed joiner part would be, to keep the ledge dream alive. Was gutted to hear of Deucey's passing last year. 

^^^  Hahaha!  Self-awareness is the first step to self-improvement. 

"On that note, Deucey recommended connecting the ledge master point onto a sling up to the anchor for a better hang."

Yes, he told me the same:  "You always get a better ledge hang if you clip the ledge into about a 12-inch-long sling rather than directly into the bolt."  I used to always clip straight into the bolt to keep the ledge as high as possible, but nowadays I have taken to dedicating two adjustable daisies to the top of the ledge - red for right and lemon for left.  It makes it super easy to un-flag and re-flag, you're never wondering which is "wall side" and which is "air side" because the left and right designations keep the ledge correctly oriented, and gives you immediate universal adjustability anywhere on your belay anchor. Once you get it positioned, add a full strength backup.  

Kevin how often are you sleeping 2 people on a delta2p? (I’m not trying to start a single vs double portaledge debate…)

jt newgard wrote:

I don't have as many nights on the wall as Kevin or Pete but love my Delta 2p origami ledge. For me, the pure joy of watching it set itself up overcomes the idiosyncracies of dialing in the hang. On that note, Deucey recommended connecting the ledge master point onto a sling up to the anchor for a better hang. And yes, clipping some webbing (or double-length sling) from the clip-in point in the middle of the bed to the master point prevents taco-ing against your homie. It is cozy but that is a feature not a bug for me ;)

As for getting the ledge back in the bag, just remember to fold starting from the wall side. I always forgot that. I have one of the O.G. tester bags, it fits in just fine, but it developed some wear points that had to be reinforced from the bars sticking out.

One of my long term goals is to bend up some aluminum and see how strong a resin-printed joiner part would be, to keep the ledge dream alive. Was gutted to hear of Deucey's passing last year. 

I'm planning on building a ledge soon, would be super curious to hear how some tests for a printed joiner part go if you get to it first. I have access to a CNC but it seems there isn't much stress on the part so resin might be easier.

Awesome Joe, yes I'll let you know how it goes. I think the bullet joiner is a great candidate for printing, being that it's a wonky little part. I was leaning towards resin because you can get a really smooth finish with tighter dimension-tolerance than more standard filament printing. The tube frame just slips right over the bullet so you don't want any slop there. 

I think the tradeoff is that resin parts tend to be lower strength. That said, I have a co-worker that has the process pretty dialed and I know he does a UV cure to increase the strength. Will plan to test the crap out of any homemade parts, they will get banged up on the wall!

..

P.S. Just curious, are you building a D4 - foldable type ledge ?

Yeah I'm planning on building a d4 full size. Hoping to maybe experiment with some ideas once I get the process figured out. Shoot me an email, would love to stay in touch with anyone else messing around with this stuff

I'm hijacking this post to ask... say no to BD and Metolius?

Making a ledge is 5% making the frame and 95% sewing. Even more so if you also make a fly. Think it all out carefully to save yourself hours and hours of frustration. Have fun! 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Depends upon whether you can get someone else to do the majority of hauling and carrying them. Minus the weight they're great 

This is what my big waller friend says, like your opinion, thanks

I think the new BD is like the D4 with curved corners. The only thing that concerns me with all these new ones are the lack of ledge to wall bumpers. They wear alot, so that would mean the fabric would wear more without them.

Well well well.  
what do we have here… hmmmmmm

jt newgard wrote:

One of my long term goals is to bend up some aluminum and see how strong a resin-printed joiner part would be, to keep the ledge dream alive. Was gutted to hear of Deucey's passing last year. 

With the right fil, they're pretty darn tough! best is being able to print them in mass and dump a few in the bottom of the pig for in-field repair. you can print straight tube connecters too!  edit - i should add that i've never had to use a spare corner for in-field repair yet. then again, i'm not wall camping nearly as often as some of the folks on here. too many other places to see and do. so, for the few number of walls i've used them, they're ....whats the saying?....super good enough? can't beat a .30 cent corner vs. a 65 dollar milled 6065 al.

who needs a mill or lathe? cnc? puuuuhhhleeeaaase!!
i owe all my diy ledge ideas to Deuce. I used to work for a tubing manufacture (carbon, ss, ti, etc..) He and i spoke a few times over tubing supply before his D4 launched, but it never went any further as I ultimately could not supply the aluminum grade he was seeking. a very generous man he is. I've still got a few hundred feet of 1" OD ti laying in the backyard. and a sewing machine rotting in the attic. Maybe someday i'll make some more ledges. 

Oh wow, nice guys! Clearly the ledge dream is alive and well !!

Although, with so many competitors in this lucrative market, looks like I will have to carve out my own niche. I'm picturing a 10-foot side length OCTOPOD. Just imagine the possibilities.

Skot Richards wrote:

Well well well.  
what do we have here… hmmmmmm

Can’t wait to see the skot Portaledge…

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

May your dreams turn to ash in your mouth

*cash