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What happened to UIAA full body harnesses?

Original Post
Eric Craig · · Santa Cruz · Joined Sep 2024 · Points: 0

It's interesting to me that the once common  "UIAA" approved full body harness has disappeared, except for the Petzl #8003. It was formerly required by, as far as I knew,  all "IFMGA" (UIAGM) training/certification programs. 

It's particularly interesting in light of multiple recent leader fall incidents where the leader goes upside down, sometimes with the  modern helmet apparently doing its job, sometimes not. Some of these near tragedies and full on tragedies MAYBE would have been averted by use of full body harnesses.????

dave custer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 2,903

Myth has it that the pro- and anti- shoulder/full-body harness factions (represented by two former UIAA Safety Commission presidents) had a fallathon (late 1990s?) to demonstrate the superiority of their harness systems. Each former SafeCom president was injured (mildly) while demonstrating their harness system in upsidedown falls. Thereafter, there was no further SafeCom recommendation on the subject.

There is more data now:

https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/educ_hess_etds/65/ (author is a current, corresponding UIAA SafeCom member).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1580/06-WEME-OR-020R.1

Is there data distillation that shows which upsidedown falls would have benefitted from a shoulder/full-body harness? 

Kai Larson · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 441

I have some full body harnesses sized for kids that I bought in the 1990's.  Still use them when I am teaching little kids to climb.  Small children often don't fit well in sit harnesses.  

Eric Craig · · Santa Cruz · Joined Sep 2024 · Points: 0
dave custer wrote:

Myth has it that the pro- and anti- shoulder/full-body harness factions (represented by two former UIAA Safety Commission presidents) had a fallathon (late 1990s?) to demonstrate the superiority of their harness systems. Each former SafeCom president was injured (mildly) while demonstrating their harness system in upsidedown falls. Thereafter, there was no further SafeCom recommendation on the subject.

There is more data now:

https://digitalrepository.unm.edu/educ_hess_etds/65/ (author is a current, corresponding UIAA SafeCom member).

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1580/06-WEME-OR-020R.1

Is there data distillation that shows which upsidedown falls would have benefitted from a shoulder/full-body harness? 

Sorry but I didn't find much useful information at the provided links. Don't know what to say about "Myth has it"........

The fundamentals at play here are not particularly mysterious. The mystery to me is that someone, or a group of someones, decided that the potential benefits of a climber tying the rope to their person at a location above their center of gravity are no longer of greater significance than????????

Is there "data distillation" that shows the outcome of upside down falls is NOT better when a "shoulder/full body harness" is used?

Wiggle Mc Giggle · · Te Wai Pounamu, Aotearoa · Joined Jan 2023 · Points: 0
Kai Larson wrote:

I have some full body harnesses sized for kids that I bought in the 1990's.  Still use them when I am teaching little kids to climb.  Small children often don't fit well in sit harnesses.  

They still make these kid size ones, at least for the smaller sizes.

i shore · · London · Joined May 2018 · Points: 0
Eric Craig wrote:

It's interesting to me that the once ubiquitous (except in the U.S.) "UIAA" approved full body harness has disappeared, except for the Petzl #8003. It was formerly required by, as far as I knew,  all "IFMGA" training/certification programs.

It was never ubiquitous in the UK, in fact I hardly saw any. Probably very difficult to use with a Sticht plate/tube belay device as commonly used attached at waist level.

that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 236

Eric read the paper again, hell, just read the conclusion. 

"In summary, we did not find any evidence to show that the type of harness used significantly influences the pattern or severity of injury in climbing accidents" 

In otherwords, a full body harness isn't any safer than a sit harness. 

Eric Craig · · Santa Cruz · Joined Sep 2024 · Points: 0

Was that the sagepub link?, I couldn't get that one to work. The other link I just read the summary. It had no relevance to my question and little relevance to climbing. It was in reference to free hanging in an industrial personal protection harness. 

As for the UK thing, ok, my bad. My main point in the ubiquitous comment is availability, not neccessary usage. When only full body harnesses were UIAA approved and they were required by most guide's associations, they were apparently in use enough to warrant their manufacture by most ( if not all) major European harness manufacturers. In a climbing specific adult harness the Petzl appears to be the only one. And the Petzl 8003's current iteration is rather disappointing. And no alternative. 

Studies are often flawed. Often intentionally so. It defies very simple logic and physics to claim there is NO potential benefit from an above center of gravity tie in point. That said,  I am interested in reading a complete reporting on a study that finds no measurable benefit. Or reading any real explanation. Or, as indicated in my OP, an explanation of how the UIAA and UIAGM member guides associations came to the determination there was no real benefit,  which is/was a 180 degree change. As I recall from conversations with Edelrid engineers,  they HAD DATA from TEST STUDIES indicating the benefits were real. Unfortunately I long ago closed the email account were my copies of that information lived. I believe there were also pictures in the Edelrid literature of both Munter hitch and Sticht plate in use for belaying the leader from the higher level tie in point. I personally have done this myself,  while participating in Canadian guides courses, while using an Edelrid full body harness. 

Or a specific explanation of how tying to the rope above the climbers center of gravity could not be of any benefit in either of the two recent accidents reported on here at MP, one of which had a fatal outcome. I am not saying seat harnesses caused the accident(s).

 I am actually an old dyed in the wool swami belt guy, which is what I used the few times I  went climbing this year. I also recently purchased a Petzl 8003. I might one day venture onto a climb that I might actually fall off of. I am 66 years old now. Things break easier than they used to, and don't neccesarily heal so good either. 

Of course not falling off is the best way to stack the odds in your favor. 

J L · · Craggin' · Joined Jul 2023 · Points: 4
Wiggle Mc Giggle wrote:

They still make these kid size ones, at least for the smaller sizes.

Anecdotally the reason I have heard for this style over sit harnesses for kids is simply that kids don't have the hips to stay in a sit harness when flipped upside down.

NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 1

Eric, I would suspect that market influences had the most influence on the disappearance of these harnesses. The outdoor industry is no longer focused on niche products and runs like the "big business" it is these days. Manufacturers generally drop underperforming products now days. Even if they are cutting edge breakthrough products that have helped push the game of climbing forward, if they don't sell enough units they get eliminated from product lineups. 

Mike J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2023 · Points: 0

A few european manufacturers, other than Petzl, still offer UIAA approved full body harnesses. Seems to be recommended for beginners or via ferrata, these days.

https://www.ocun.com/product/bodyguard

https://www.singingrock.com/complete

https://www.alpidex.com/en/climbing/climbing-harnesses/complete-harnesses/full-body-harness-taipan-comp-by-alpidex_13701_2004

dave custer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 2,903

About the myth, the story has been related to me by both participants in the fallathon, so it's just a story. But it was the story that ended UIAA SafeCom having an opinion on the matter.

One of the old arguments for the full-body harness had to do with hanging in it for a long time, e.g. when one is injured/unconscious as a result of a leader fall. My takeaway from the Beverly thesis work is that the full-body harness is not a silver bullet. Hence its inclusion in the literature listing.

Kids also have big heads, so the center of mass is relatively higher than that for adults.

If you're going to exert a big force on your spine, you'd rather exert the force in line with the spine. Why this doesn't affect the data in the sage pub article is a good question. Is it that there are other mechanisms of injury due to the full-body harness flipping the climber abruptly upright (nose-first into the rock...)? Is it that the total number of incidents in the study didn't include ones where such loading was important? Is it because climbing fall arrest is almost always a fraction of the maximum permissible force?

If there are incidents where a full-body harness is likely to have made a significant difference, I'd love to hear about them. 

Climb On · · Everywhere · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 0

Would you seriously switch to a full body harness?

Eric Craig · · Santa Cruz · Joined Sep 2024 · Points: 0
Climb On wrote:

Would you seriously switch to a full body harness?

I guess this is addressed to me? Switching? 

As indicated upthread here, and elsewhere MP, I have experience using full body harnesses CLIMBING. I doubt I ever would have except that in the 1980's using a full body harness was required to participate in the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides  training and certification program. Contrary to some peoples opinion (based on actual use?), I found them very convenient to use. I have previously worn a Petzl model 4003 for hundreds of days of alpine guiding throughout western North America. I have recently purchased a Petzl 8003 harness. Changing clothing and taking a shit are if anything easier. There is no harness/ pack hip belt interference. Freedom of movement is excellent. 

My questions remain. I find it difficult to believe that the UIAA dropped their recommendation for full body harnesses based on the inconclusive results of a pissing match. That doesn't line up with the reams of UIAA information provided to me by Edelrid while I was conducting research for the AMGA. But maybe the UIAA was or is just a petty little good old boy's club, a sham, I don't know. 

Yes I am aware of fatal leader falls that MAYBE would have had a different outcome if full body harnesses had been used. It is mostly conjecture on my part. To make a reasonable guess on this would require good video footage to see as best as possible what happened when etc. 

Really, am I the only one that sees this? If so......whoa....................

What about trying to use one for yourself? I don't mean just a little try on, but use it every day for three weeks like you have no option and you are being judged every day on your performance and attitude,  and it is smart for you to figure out how to make the best use of it. Then you would actually learn something about using a full body harness. Same way I did.

BTW, Merry Christmas!

dave custer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 2,903

When I started climbing in the 80s, I led with a harness and shoulder harness that was just an elaborate piece of webbing. The benefits were that I always had one more sling (the shoulder harness) to make an anchor with and that it was easier to find the rope above my waist to clip. I don't remember any disadvantages. I stopped using it because it was stolen along with my rack and the car it was in, I still use a shoulder harness when I'm faffing around with a backpack of any size while roped/rappelling. 

But I don't fall enough to have even anecdotal data on how well the shoulder/full-body harness works. Let alone upside-down whippers or falls where I'm upside-down and unconscious for hours. 

I'd be delighted to see the UIAA data. 

Ben Zartman · · Little Compton, RI · Joined Apr 2024 · Points: 0

Yates and Kong both make full-body harnesses, but they are geared toward arborist and industrial rope-access guys.  I think the Yates is ANSI-certified; the Kong CE.

They're designed for the all-day-dangle, so have wider strapping, and you can hang out pretty comfortably in them.  While they're fine for those two industries, I think they'd be too heavy and bulky for climbing, plus they have three or four metal clip-in rings--not what you'd want to get into the Harding Slot with.

A friend used to have a Petlz full-body back in the 90s for climbing, 'cause he was fattish.  I don't know why you couldn't belay and rappel off a lower tie-in point, and take advantage of the upper tie-in for those times when an upside-down fall might happen.

If it wasn't somewhat impractical, I've thought that incorporating a harness into shorts or even a coverall-sort of garment would be cool, since all that fabric would spread the load.  But I think it would limit you in other ways.

NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 1
Ben Zartman wrote: If it wasn't somewhat impractical, I've thought that incorporating a harness into shorts or even a coverall-sort of garment would be cool, since all that fabric would spread the load.  But I think it would limit you in other ways.

Mammut had a version of this idea about 8-10yrs ago.

They sold almost none of them because the majority of people could see list of problems and weren’t willing to purchase them. I’m sure there were some limited advantages, but it appears that most people weren’t willing to live with the drawbacks. 

Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 50
NateC wrote:

Mammut had a version of this idea about 8-10yrs ago.

They sold almost none of them because the majority of people could see list of problems and weren’t willing to purchase them. I’m sure there were some limited advantages, but it appears that most people weren’t willing to live with the drawbacks. 

Ah yes, the Mammut Realization Shorts, which were followed up by the Mammut Realization Pants.

The products that had many people comparing the frequency of which they wash their shorts and pants (often) with the frequency of which they wash their harnesses (never)

Ben Zartman · · Little Compton, RI · Joined Apr 2024 · Points: 0
Khoi wrote:

Ah yes, the Mammut Realization Shorts, which were followed up be the Mammut Realization Pants.

The products that had many people comparing the frequency of which they wash their shorts and pants (often) with the frequency of which they wash their harnesses (never)

It's a great name, for the realization that the idea was bad.

Maybe it has some uses for industrial applications where a uniform coverall and a clip-in are both required.  But for climbing, I just couldn't see it.

Ackley The Improved · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2020 · Points: 0

A friend has 3. Of the industrial type. He  welds at height. Welding that damages the web from the light alone, so the company keeps replacing them even tho they look okay. Industry standards do not allow them to be worn under clothes that would protect from the damage.

Safety committees are often made up of opinionated gate keepers who don’t share opinions.

Eric Craig · · Santa Cruz · Joined Sep 2024 · Points: 0
that guy named seb wrote:

Eric read the paper again, hell, just read the conclusion. 

"In summary, we did not find any evidence to show that the type of harness used significantly influences the pattern or severity of injury in climbing accidents" 

In otherwords, a full body harness isn't any safer than a sit harness. 

Well, I was able to download the "sagepub" article today. It seems a well done analysis, complete with human assumptions that are in my opinion very smart and appropriate. It is reasonable grounds for making a choice. 

It is interesting that fatal accidents were excluded. Would also be interesting to see if harness related thoracic/lumbar injuries are more common in older climbers. 

I definitely recommend reading the entire article.  It isn't that long.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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