Lifting before or after climbing?

I'm sure this has been discussed plenty but...

For the first time ever I'm actually trying to lift weights to help my climbing. I've been doing bench, squats, dead lifts, and shoulder stuff as well as finger training. 

I've been doing this before climbing, but it definitely effects the quality of my session. I'm not too worried about sending in the gym, but my opinion is climbing is skill based first, and I'm not sure I should be sacrificing the quality of my session for lifting. On the other hand, I feel like I should be fresh to try hard while lifting to make the best gains.

Thoughts?

Thanks

All climbing training programs that incorporate some lifting in them that I had personally seen have always had lifting AFTER climbing, or on a different day. 

They also incorporate lifting only 2x a week, max, sometimes as low as 1x a week.

For me personally, it is easiest to add a weight-training session on the weekend, when I climb in the morning, and have plenty of time. I do the climbing first, then weights. The 2nd weekly session either doesn't happen, or gets shortened, because it goes in the evening after climbing.

I know some people who have the luxury of flexible work split up climbing and weights, doing Climbing in the morning, and then weights in the afternoon, followed by a day of full rest. Alternatively, I know people who do climbing in the evening, followed by early-morning weight-training the following day, then 30-36 hrs of complete rest before the next climbing session.

In both of those cases the priority is given to being fully rested before climbing session, but also allows for some rest/recovery before doing the weight session.

saign charlestein wrote:

For the first time ever I'm actually trying to lift weights to help my climbing. ... I'm not too worried about sending in the gym, but my opinion is climbing is skill based first, and I'm not sure I should be sacrificing the quality of my session for lifting. On the other hand, I feel like I should be fresh to try hard while lifting to make the best gains.

Remember that lifting is just a supplement, and it doesn't have to be perfect. Your skill-based, climbing-specific gym time is more important for your climbing progression, at least most of the time**. You should make that (the climbing) the priority, and the lifting is secondary.

Also remember that your lifting doesn't have to be optimal. Even if if these is some hypothetical optimal lifting program that would maximize your lifting gains, you don't really need that. As a novice lifter you'll make significant gains with a fairly basic program.

If you are climbing and lifting on the same session (or see Lena Chita's comment above for the option of split sessions), go with climbing first, lifting after. Keep your climbing sessions a little shorter to have time and energy for lifting. This is good for your climbing anyway - strength and power focused climbing session should be high intensity but fairly short, and you should stop once the quality of effort starts to decline. This should leave plenty of energy to lift.  If you are too tired after bouldering to do squats and bench press, you are probably climbing longer than is ideal and should be doing shorter sessions. Similar with aerobic capacity work - if you are too tired afterward to lift, you probably went too hard.  It is a bit different if you are doing some sort of exhausting power-endurance protocol. But you shouldn't be doing those that much of the time anyway. Schedule your lifting days so they align with less-tiring climbing sessions. 

** There can be times in the year you focus more on lifting. I'll do a 6 week period once or twice a year that I drop my climbing volume substantially and focus on the lifting.  This can be useful to get a short boost to the rate of lifting improvement, then go back to maintenance or very gradual lifting gains while focusing on climbing.  These lifting periods also align with times when I don't really want to try hard climbing anyway, either because it is mid-summer and too hot to climb hard (even in the gym), or because I have some sort of finger tweak that needs a break from hard climbing. Lifting during these periods is definitely better than doing nothing, and is a nice way to get better value from a time that is low-value for actual climbing.

Recognizing that what I'm about to describe is not feasible for everyone... I lift in the morning before work and I climb in the evening after work. With that much time in between, it works for me and I can still climb pretty close to my limit in the evening on a lifting day. Although as I say that I realize I've been lifting for 21 years now so that probably helps.

Anyway, splitting it up would be ideal. Ideally lifting on one day, climbing on another. Slightly less ideal, lift or climb in the morning and do the other in the evening. But above all else, I would not lift prior to climbing because my climbing would be very negatively impacted if I did.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I'll be switching it up

Cheers

From April to October I was climbing outdoors almost every weekend, so I usually only had one day during the week to climb at the gym and do some strength training afterward. Often I would only do one set each of pull-ups and push-ups plus some light band-work for the shoulders. Still, by the end of the season my pull-up and push-up numbers had increased noticeably. Which suggests to me that just climbing a lot can definitely make you stronger, and it can be good to not overdo things and thus court injury. I also got a lot better at granite trad climbing, which was my goal. (Granted, I’m 41, so my recovery budget is more limited now.)

Always worth asking if you would rather improve at lifting etc. or improve at climbing, and prioritize accordingly. My gut tells me you don’t really need to lift at all to climb 5.12.

It's possible to combine them, but over the years I've found that completely separate sessions tend to be much higher quality. These days my schedule is M/W/F climbing and Tu/Th strength training, with the strength training sessions only lasting ~45m. Better results, more focus, less time, better recovery, it's been great.

Dan Schmidt wrote:

It's possible to combine them, but over the years I've found that completely separate sessions tend to be much higher quality. These days my schedule is M/W/F climbing and Tu/Th strength training, with the strength training sessions only lasting ~45m. Better results, more focus, less time, better recovery, it's been great.

I’m intrigued by “better recovery.” I feel like I would be overtraining if I did that. What are you doing in your sessions (both kinds)? How often do you get out on rock?

I vote before for compound lifts and after for shoulder stabilizers and PT work. If you're too tired to climb well after lifting, you're doing too many exercises or reps. Hard to give lifts a proper effort after a long climbing session, so you're not strength training, you're just checking a box with busy work, which is totally fine for maintenance periods.

Ya my board session might be a couple climbs shorter (fingers love that!) but I need less climbs to warm up since my whole body is activated. Plus the endorphin kick to start the session gets me in the right try-hard state.

Alex C wrote:
I’m intrigued by “better recovery.” I feel like I would be overtraining if I did that. What are you doing in your sessions (both kinds)? How often do you get out on rock?

The week breaks down as:

• Mo: 1h15m board climbing
• Tu: 45m strength training
• W: 30m aerobic intervals on a board
• Th: 45m strength training
• F: 1h15m board climbing

And I toggle between two phases:

• Preparatory / strength
  • More static climbing on the worst possible holds, with an emphasis on steady pulls, specific grip types, and no thrutching / minimal momentum and power.
  • Strength-oriented programming of gym exercises (e.g. 3x5 squat, bench, row plus some accessories like the glute machine).
• Power / transition
  • Essentially, just projecting on the board. More of an "anything goes" attitude towards sending and being as snappy as possible.
  • A shift towards speed/power programming of similar gym exercises (e.g. bounding, campusing, throws, with a minimal of strength maintenance)

I'm also really big on mobility these days, especially hips and shoulders. I have a little routine I do with my son every day, plus some weighted variations I mix into the rest periods of my strength sessions.

And to be honest, that's just not really a lot of climbing or training, but it's very effective for bouldering and I'm making steadier progress with a busier life in my mid-30s than I did in my late-20s. To make strength/power gains you must keep quality high and stop before you lose snap or get sluggish, and if you do that you'll recover a lot faster. (Plus all the usual: go to bed early and get a good night's sleep, and make sure you eat enough.)

I would agree in saying that climbing is largely skill based rather than strength so that being said, you can gain quite a bit from climbing exclusively. On the other had, I personally really like weight training as a separate entity from climbing so I need to find time to squeeze it in and recover in time for the weekend rocks. what is your current schedule? I am climbing saturdaysunday, work & weights, Monday thru Wednesday then thursday and friday to recover for the weekend. Granted, every week is different but i generally try to put 2 rest days between climbing days. feel free to send a message if you want help with a schedule.

Alex C wrote:

From April to October I was climbing outdoors almost every weekend, so I usually only had one day during the week to climb at the gym and do some strength training afterward. Often I would only do one set each of pull-ups and push-ups plus some light band-work for the shoulders. Still, by the end of the season my pull-up and push-up numbers had increased noticeably. Which suggests to me that just climbing a lot can definitely make you stronger, and it can be good to not overdo things and thus court injury. I also got a lot better at granite trad climbing, which was my goal. (Granted, I’m 41, so my recovery budget is more limited now.)

Always worth asking if you would rather improve at lifting etc. or improve at climbing, and prioritize accordingly. My gut tells me you don’t really need to lift at all to climb 5.12.

You’re absolutely right. There’s tons of climbers who climb well beyond 5.12 with never lifting a weight, and I find myself getting way stronger when I just climb outside, which I do every season.

The problem is, I live in WA. It rains here from Nov to April with a a few climbable days sprinkled in (if your schedule aligns) on a good year. It can be much worse on a bad year.

Climbing inside can also get you stronger without lifting, but I also find it much harder on my body. I’m going to be 44 in a couple months and have really struggled with injuries over the last 7 years including a ruptured disc in my back, and 2 shoulder surgeries. My main reason for lifting is to build resilience to prevent injury. I know I’m going to try hard and either get stronger or injured, and I’d rather take preventative measures to focus on getting stronger.

When when the season comes I’ll do some maintenance stuff (which I’ve done since my surgeries), but after my surgeries I’ve had a hard time building my capacity back up to even really go to the gym in the outdoor season as I find I need 2 full rest days after trying hard to perform optimally again and not dig myself a hole. I typically climb twice a week outside when the weather is nice. I’m hoping that some strength training will help build my capacity back up and shorten my recovery time, as well as be able to harder moves/make hard moves feel easier.

I think “best” is a separate session, second best after climbing third best before climbing.

That said I think the most important thing is consistency. I’ve found it easiest to stay consistent by doing it before climbing and viewing it as a warmup in addition to training. I really don’t notice much of a dip in quality of my session, I see strength gains, and I don’t skip the lifting like I am wont to if I’ve already had my fun climbing.

Optimization can be a trap-the most important thing is doing something consistently, so if before works for you that’s a totally reasonable thing to do. 

Yea, I’ll add that I also sometimes lift/strength train before climbing.  When I do that I do way less volume and treat it as a power session (high intensity but really low reps).  It still cuts into climbing a little, but over time the progression is probably better for it.  If I’m doing more weightlifting volume though it’s almost always after climbing or on a separate day, followed by a rest day.  

nowhere wrote:

Optimization can be a trap-the most important thing is doing something consistently, so if before works for you that’s a totally reasonable thing to do. 

^ this bears repeating 

Dan Schmidt wrote:

It's possible to combine them, but over the years I've found that completely separate sessions tend to be much higher quality. These days my schedule is M/W/F climbing and Tu/Th strength training, with the strength training sessions only lasting ~45m. Better results, more focus, less time, better recovery, it's been great.

When do you rest?  I assume that weekends are for climbing outside. I managed to finally break through the mid-5.12 barrier this year after I started focused training, but I’ve really struggled to fit in adequate rest and recovery. However, I’m also in my mid fifties, so perhaps it’s just my age. 

I think this has been answered pretty well. bottom line- do the most important things first if you can't schedule lifting vs. climbing on separate days. love that you are doing your bench/squats/deadlifts. maybe consider rows and pull ups! if your goal is to work technique, are you working on technique w/ intention? 

Frank Stein wrote:

When do you rest?  I assume that weekends are for climbing outside. I managed to finally break through the mid-5.12 barrier this year after I started focused training, but I’ve really struggled to fit in adequate rest and recovery. However, I’m also in my mid fifties, so perhaps it’s just my age. 

I rest on the weekend—family time. But this schedule is flexible: if Sa/Su open up I’ll do that instead of the M/F sessions. If I could I’d train on rock, that’s just not possible right now (location, business, etc.).

Jason L wrote:

I think this has been answered pretty well. bottom line- do the most important things first if you can't schedule lifting vs. climbing on separate days. love that you are doing your bench/squats/deadlifts. maybe consider rows and pull ups! if your goal is to work technique, are you working on technique w/ intention? 

I’ve been doing some one arm assisted pull-ups once a week the last couple weeks.

I climb with intention, meaning I have a set plan on what I’m going to be doing each session and mostly stick to it, but I can get swayed by partners. In the end climbing is something I do for fun and I’d like to keep it that way.

As far as working on technique with intention: I don’t really do any drills or anything like that, but I will try moves multiple ways and try and find the best beta, and don’t just give up on moves because “I’m not strong enough”  

When I climb outside I have been filming myself if it permits, and should do that in the gym. That is a game changer imo.

I’m not really sure what you’re calling working on technique with intention, but I’d be happy to hear you elaborate.

Alex C wrote:

(I wish I could train 5 days a week like Dan… but I personally cannot. My shoulders need more rest days.)

Well to be fair, I'm probably not doing much if anything more than most people in the thread, I'm just spreading it out over more days. But it really is just a grasping, optimizing process that takes time and reflection to figure out, and I have seen a lot of different routines work for people. (E.g. I recall Bill Ramsay saying on a podcast that as he got older, he switched to doing a few big days rather than a lot of short ones.)

The only commonality I’ve seen among successful routines is that the individual sessions are high quality. The people who drive themselves into the ground tend to have a lot of middling sessions and nagging injuries, and don't progress. But I think if you can hit the sweet spot each workout, the organization of the overall training program is not as important as we sometimes think.

Good discussion on this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/pw7jdh/when_do_you_incorporate_weight_training/ 

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/11z1f6r/incorporating_strength_training_as_a_fairly_weak/