International Climb Technology?

Does anyone have experience with/ever used any tools from International Climb Technology/ICT? They came across my instagram feed, and I've seen their tools show up sometimes on the UIAA comp circuit. Not many offerings on the ice side of things, looks like they're mostly targeting dry tooling and comp tools. Seems like they have more of a presence in Europe and the Middle East, they seem to be based in Iran. They're having a Black Friday sale with what look like some pretty wild deals (50% off up to 3 pairs of tools, down to 280 euro for a pair?? Crazy.) which on its face could be nice for picking up a pair of cool dry tools for accessible prices.

https://www.instagram .com/international_climb_technology/

General hesitations:

• Haven't seen much of them around other than on Instagram, and a few appearances in comps. Not as established a brand. Is it just that they're mainly in Europe and so we North Americans don't see it much?
  • Unsure how rigorously they test their stuff. I haven't heard anything about ICT tools catastrophically failing, and they seem to be strong enough that comp climbers are confidently stein pulling on them, but that doesn't say anything about quality control or overall consistency, aluminum/steel quality, pick quality, etc.
• They sent me a catalog with all their sale offerings, but it's hard to say anything about weight, balance, shape, quality, construction, etc without holding one.
• Based in Iran, definitely a hot geopolitical entity, IMO ethically on par with buying stuff from Krukonogi in Russia (which folks still seem to do anyways).
  • Corollary, potential issues with shipping, although there's also ICT Europe so I assume they've got a distributor in Europe.

Legit concerns? Overblown? Worth eating the cost to have a pair of aluminum dry tools to bang around on?

They make comp tools with geometry, picks and cheeks copied from krukonogi, which adds to ethical complexity if you believe in IP. 

Otherwise quality matches their pricing. Strong enough to pass UIAA test, but that doesn't say much. They are known to bend much easier than good comp tools, but they cost 4x less than anchars. 

Buying comp tools for non-comp routes doesn't make much sense imo, but if you're looking for an entry level comp tool this is exactly it. 

The classic downside of buying off-brand tools is the challenge to get replacement picks a couple years down the road.  And alternative bargain would be to pick up a used pair of Trango Raptors for $220 or so.

Picks for ICT have the standard m8 27mm apart bolt pattern. There is no shortage of picks for them. 

Arguably it's easier to find good comp picks for ict than for nomics. 

I inquired about an order from them some time ago and they informed me I would need to email them a photocopy of my ID to complete the purchase.

0/10

FYI I’ve ordered tools from them a few months back and no ID required. They’re not perfect, but I would consider them a solid entry level comp tool at a crazy competitive price. I’ll probably upgrade to some carbon beauties eventually, but ICT gets you in the door. 

Jedrzej Jablonski wrote:

They make comp tools with geometry, picks and cheeks copied from krukonogi, which adds to ethical complexity if you believe in IP. 

As a person who believes in IP and works in the IP arena for a living, I can tell you that unless ICT is violating Krukonogi patents or stole trade secrets, there is nothing unethical about copying a Krukonogi design.  Unpatented designs are part of the public domain and are free for anyone to copy or emulate.  That's true in the US, and pretty much every other nation on earth.  Once you start selling something, if it is not protected by patents, competitors are free to copy it, and/or improve upon it.  This is a key element in creating a competive marketplace for goods.  

Kai Larson wrote:

As a person who believes in IP and works in the IP arena for a living, I can tell you that unless ICT is violating Krukonogi patents or stole trade secrets, there is nothing unethical about copying a Krukonogi design.  Unpatented designs are part of the public domain and are free for anyone to copy or emulate.  That's true in the US, and pretty much every other nation on earth.  Once you start selling something, if it is not protected by patents, competitors are free to copy it, and/or improve upon it.  This is a key element in creating a competive marketplace for goods.  

Idk it sounds like a dick move to me. Imagine living in a world where patents didn’t need to exist… I guess you’d be out a job though.

Jacob Matos wrote:

FYI I’ve ordered tools from them a few months back and no ID required. They’re not perfect, but I would consider them a solid entry level comp tool at a crazy competitive price. I’ll probably upgrade to some carbon beauties eventually, but ICT gets you in the door. 

Christian Donkey wrote:

Idk it sounds like a dick move to me. Imagine living in a world where patents didn’t need to exist… I guess you’d be out a job though.

In that world, the only ice tools with curved picks would be made by Black Diamond and the only tools with curved shafts would be made by Petzl.  The only crampons with front points would be made by Grivel.  Everyone else would be selling alpenstocks and hobnail boots.  

Gore would be the only company selling waterproof/breathable fabric.  

Thermarest would be the only company selling insulated inflatable sleeping mats.  

Edelrid would be the only company selling kernmantle climbing ropes made from nylon.  Everyone else would be selling hawser-laid hemp ropes.  

Wild Country would be the only company selling cams.  

The patent system encourages both innovation and competition.  

You're free to avoid companies that copy their competitor's products.  It's going to severely limit your choices in pretty much every consumer good on the market however.  

Kai Larson wrote:

In that world, the only ice tools with curved picks would be made by Black Diamond and the only tools with curved shafts would be made by Petzl.  The only crampons with front points would be made by Grivel.  Everyone else would be selling alpenstocks and hobnail boots.  

Gore would be the only company selling waterproof/breathable fabric.  

Thermarest would be the only company selling insulated inflatable sleeping mats.  

Edelrid would be the only company selling kernmantle climbing ropes made from nylon.  Everyone else would be selling hawser-laid hemp ropes.  

Wild Country would be the only company selling cams.  

The patent system encourages both innovation and competition.  

You're free to avoid companies that copy their competitor's products.  It's going to severely limit your choices in pretty much every consumer good on the market however.  

I follow almost all of this ok. I don't get the black diamond thing. What kind of curve are you referring to? Just curious,  no big deal. 

I do wonder how many realize the first 12 point crampons were Grivels, allegedly. And in the 1930's. That is, I have heard that too, but I don't know for sure it's true. 

Eric Craig wrote:

I follow almost all of this ok. I don't get the black diamond thing. What kind of curve are you referring to? Just curious,  no big deal. 

I do wonder how many realize the first 12 point crampons were Grivels, allegedly. And in the 1930's. That is, I have heard that too, but I don't know for sure it's true. 

Yvon Chouinard created the first ice axe picks that were curved.  Prior to him, they were straignt.  Curved picks held better in the ice.  

Black Diamond is the successor to Chouinard Equipment, Yvon's climbing equipment company.  Chouinard divested Chouinard Equipment in an employee buy-out and created Black Diamond when liability concerns from the climbing company threatened Patagonia, Chouinard's other company.  

Hi Kai, yes that is one story. I believe the Ralling Everest model with an almost identical curve proceeded the original Chouinard Piolet. One early version of the Super Conta ice axe was just slightly less curved. I recently heard that Fred Beckey had and used a Super Conta before switching to the Chouinard. 

This isn't to take anything away from Chouinard,  and Tom Frost. Chouinard's book Climbing Ice has some excellent stuff in it. Although most would agree, I think, there are better ways to go about climbing vertical water ice, even when using Chouinard Zero tools. 

Of course today's technical pick design comes from the Simond Chacal. Except that that many people are also using recurve pick tools for general mountaineering now. So much for Chouinard's excellent work in Climbing Ice!

Sorry to have been so nitpicky about your post. I think it is excellent. 

Here's the Ralling axe, for sale on Ebay. These were available by 1968, maybe before,  I don't know for sure. 

Christian Donkey wrote:

Curious how you bypassed their identity theft tactics?

Short of nefarious purposes there’s no reason to ask for identification. I wouldn’t do business with any company that asked me for that, let alone one from Iran.

Christian Donkey wrote:

Curious how you bypassed their identity theft tactics?

I was just asked for a name, phone number and address. I wonder if there’s some sort of cultural thing in Iran around using id cards for business or a mistranslation. Definitely would not have bought if I needed to scan my passport lol, maybe they’ve figured out how to do business with North Americans in the year between your email and mine.

Kai Larson wrote:

In that world, the only ice tools with curved picks would be made by Black Diamond and the only tools with curved shafts would be made by Petzl.  The only crampons with front points would be made by Grivel.  Everyone else would be selling alpenstocks and hobnail boots.  

Gore would be the only company selling waterproof/breathable fabric.  

Thermarest would be the only company selling insulated inflatable sleeping mats.  

Edelrid would be the only company selling kernmantle climbing ropes made from nylon.  Everyone else would be selling hawser-laid hemp ropes.  

Wild Country would be the only company selling cams.  

The patent system encourages both innovation and competition.  

You're free to avoid companies that copy their competitor's products.  It's going to severely limit your choices in pretty much every consumer good on the market however.  

Your explanation is understandable, and I do see the usefulness of patents in the free market, so I don’t mean to argue with that. But non-patented IP is stolen all the time, and how does this not make you a jerk if you steal an idea from someone and can get away with it just because there are no legal consequences? Not all ethics discussions are handled in a court of law.

Truly it’s just in poor taste in the small community of comp climbing unless there’s some actual contribution to the sport, I.e. inspiration and innovation. ICT makes plenty of other cheap tools that are seemingly their own design, so their product line doesn’t have to include Kruk’s design.

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Also- be super careful paying for stuff in heavily sanctioned countries. Your PayPal and connected bank accounts can get flagged and locked down. 

Christian Donkey wrote:

But non-patented IP is stolen all the time, and how does this not make you a jerk if you steal an idea from someone and can get away with it just because there are no legal consequences? Not all ethics discussions are handled in a court of law.

Truly it’s just in poor taste in the small community of comp climbing unless there’s some actual contribution to the sport, I.e. inspiration and innovation. ICT makes plenty of other cheap tools that are seemingly their own design, so their product line doesn’t have to include Kruk’s design.

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I guess we have different perspectives.  

I don't believe that ideas that are in the public domain can be "stolen."   They belong to everyone, like open source software.  The community should be free to copy and/or improve on them as they wish.  

With particular application to Krukonogi, a significant source of their revenue is likely derived from selling third party pick designs of Petzl, Cassin, Black Diamond, and other ice tool and crampon manufacturers.  When you buy a Krukonogi pick for your Black Diamond tool, you are supporting a company that is copying someone else's pick designs.  

Kai Larson wrote:

I guess we have different perspectives.  

I don't believe that ideas that are in the public domain can be "stolen."   They belong to everyone, like open source software.  The community should be free to copy and/or improve on them as they wish.  

With particular application to Krukonogi, a significant source of their revenue is likely derived from selling third party pick designs of Petzl, Cassin, Black Diamond, and other ice tool and crampon manufacturers.  When you buy a Krukonogi pick for your Black Diamond tool, you are supporting a company that is copying someone else's pick designs.  

I agree with you regarding open source software, however, I don't think you can assume that Kruk intends their designs to be "open source," and this is important because that is the fundamental characteristic of open source software: that its developers intend their code to be used by the public. 

The other thing about open source is that typically it's for the sake of improvement, as opposed to your definition of "copy and/or improve." Duplicating serves no purpose. If you can improve something, however, then there is something to be gained by the community. 

You say Kruk copies designs, but I would argue (as I'm sure Kruk and it's customer base would) that they offer an improved product: better steel and performance (for those who haven't, watch Stas climb with these picks and you will see their potential). 

ICT's clone of Anchar is cheaper and uses worse materials. It's a regression, not progression of an idea. 

Does anyone know much about the different models? Considering picking up a pair when they go on sale again. Would mainly be looking at using them for dry-tooling on rock.