Know of a quickdraw that can stand up on its own?

(I almost feel guilty to be posting so requently these days. But when I'm psyched about something, I'm full of questions, so here I am again...)

I'll be clear -- I'm not looking for a stiffy/panic/extendo draw that you use for high clips only to be replaced with a regular quickdraw once you move up. I'm looking for a quickdraw that's stiff enough to be held up by the lower part of the dogbone and "swung" into the bolt hanger to clip. Currently, with all my quickdraws, I need to hold the gate open in the top biner to clip. From time to time, I am just a few inches short of that bolt hanger. I hope the draw is still lightweight, but I understand that some compromise might need to be made in that department. That's okay with me.

I know these draws are out there. I've seen one years ago and it was not a big name brand (known in the US) IIRC. Not sure what's available now. Do you own them and care to share the make and model and your experience? Thanks!

Was this what you're thinking of? Kong Panic? (see also Madrock Trigger Wire)

I'd be super tempted to just bring an ultralight stick clip if I ever do a wall again. 

Thanks, but a big NO. 

This quickdraw is for sport free climbing. The main feature is when you hold the dogbone up, the top biner does not flop down like all the quickdraws I've seen.

I've done this with a bunch of different quickdraws by flipping them upside down. The rubber draw keeper on the rope end gives enough stability to do this, works best on draws with thicker/stiffer  dogbones like Petzl Spirits. I usually switch the orientation once I am at a better stance though, because falling on them in this orientation isn't ideal and has a potential failure mode. I think anything stiff enough to do this with would have the same edge case failure mode where the the top carabiner can come unclipped from the bolt because it can't rotate freely from the draw. 

I have a few of these I've made. Normal dogbone (albeit on the stiffer side). Bottom carabiner is normal, held in place with the normal rubber keeper. Top carabiner is a Mad Rock Trigger Wire, with a rubber keeper installed on the top of the dogbone also to hold this in place. Net result is a draw you can do a reachy clip with, and then climb past. Great for working a sport project also (extra reach to clip up). 

 A little extra caution can be needed climbing past it since it has less flex than a normal quick draw.

The Trigger Wire is awesome and a very worthwhile part of the draw.

Maybe something w an additional keeper like this?

https://www.oliunid.com/ct-climbing-technology-morfo-ul-pro-climbing-quickdraw.html

Thanks all for chiming in!

Jack V wrote:

Maybe something w an additional keeper like this?
https://www.oliunid.com/ct-climbing-technology-morfo-ul-pro-climbing-quickdraw.html

It's unclear from the description:

Their webbing made of this innovative material is thinner and more flexible and is fixed to the lower carabiner with the classic Fixit webbing clip and, to prevent tipping, there is a rubber bar, the Fixbar, in the upper carabiner.

They say the webbing is more flexible, but what do they mean by "prevent tipping"? Does that mean that the top biner will not flop down when the dogbone is held up? Wish someone owning them can tell me the real experience.

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Edit: adding my later reponse here as I hit the 3-post limit today. 

Thanks Jack. I found a video showing the draw in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I67kYoqmc8g (at 6'22")

From what I can see, I believe the top biner will flop down when held up on the dogbone. 

I still believe the commercial product is out there as I know I've seen it before many years ago. But now that my brain has obssessed on it a bit, I'm having some DIY idea that does not require fixing the top biner or flip a draw upside down. Might give it a try this weekend while chilling at home since an atmospheric river is coming through starting on Friday.

I believe they mean that the upper keeper (fixbar) prevents the bolt side crab from tipping when holding up. But alas, I haven’t tried them yet personally, so can’t review the webbing. I wish you luck in your search!

edit to add: oliunid customer service is usually pretty helpful, they may be able to answer questions for you on products they stock

Those don't really exist, because the lack of flexibility means that rope movement can get the bolt side carabiner nose-hooked. At least one pro (Woods?) has broken a carabiner this way and almost decked. But if you are really determined to do that... pretty sure in the accident report i read, they had just wrapped some tape around the draw to keep the carabiner in place.

Why NOT use a stiffy/panic draw, and replace it once you are above it, at the comfortable stance?

There is a reason why the quickdraw have the rubber gasket holding the rope-side biner in place, but NOT the bolt-side biner. On the rope side, having that biner held tight by rubber gasket keeps the biner from flipping. But on the bolt-side of the draw you DO want that free movement of the dog bone against carabiner, especially once you move past it.

You aren’t “going to die” every time you use a stiffy as a regular draw, and just climb above it, but it is less optimal, and rare accidents are slightly more likely to happen if you fell above the stiffy.

So just replace it with a regular draw. It’s not that big a deal. 

Even if you're too short to reach the bolt, isn't there a way to go partially into the next move to get you enough height to clip the bolt then downclimb back to the last rest? Also, get strong enough to stop and clip mid-move.

Marc801 C wrote:

Even if you're too short to reach the bolt, isn't there a way to go partially into the next move to get you enough height to clip the bolt then downclimb back to the last rest? Also, get strong enough to stop and clip mid-move.

Not always possible. Routes do sometimes wander, and you can’t just pull up closer to the bolt.

Something I've seen and executed with some success is just flipping a standard quickdraw around and flipping the rope side carabiner against the hanger to clip.  The rubber keeper and stiff dog bone are typically rigid enough for this manuever.  This has worked for me with spirit draws and allows me to hold the dog bone down low and flip the draw onto the hangers of bolts that are just out of reach.  Doesn't give you a ton of extra reach but sometimes a few inches is the difference between working something with a tight belay or a big whip.

Here's what I use. Gives about a foot of extra reach. The dogbone has a rubber keeper on both sides (the one of the red side is built into the dogbone and isn't visible.)

I will leave this on the bolt and climb past it. There is some added risk of creating a nose-hook situation because of the stiffer draw, but it is fairly reasonable to mitigate so long as you are aware of it and manage the rope.

Overall it's a very useful tool. I have a couple of them and rarely start up a hard sport route onsight attempt without one. I'll sometimes use it to clip from lower in a less strenuous position, rather than having to stop to clip a few moves higher mid crux.

Many years ago I used some Trango draws in exactly this way while shitting myself at the 3rd draw of a relatively chill 10.  I was never brave, but I do know that Trango made a draw that you could hold by the bottom carabiner and smack the top carabiner into the hanger to clip.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

This will work. (You might need to add a bit of tape at the point where the head meets the dogbone if you're holding it by the bottom of the 5" dogbone) 

The Frog design works amazingly for slightly extending reach and facilitating clipping because you push it into the bolt instead of swinging it from the top/side of the bolt, (which can be bad for balance if one misses the bolt hole with your swing)

https://www.backcountry.com/b/kong-frog-quickdraw

If you want some stiffness then there's the Prog version that's around 12 inches

https://www.amazon.com/KONG-Prog-30cm-Red-30/dp/B01N6Y3D4Z 

Here's a video if you've never seen the frog connection piece in action:

https://youtu.be/LukSAGSmDlg?si=UcL5Me2fc6Fn-t-1 

One other aspect of the Frog is that the connection to the bolt doesn't suffer from the failure modes that regular biners suffer from when clipped with a stiffer draw

I heavily dig the Kong Prog. Great for onsights where you don’t know what the clipping stances might be. And, of course, for your just plain reachy clips. Obviously, for when you’re hanging your own draws.  

I don’t know that I’d get the frog version but I’d add another prog. That reach gives you mini stick clip on the fly.

Petzl warns against stiffening a draw for good reason. While on lead above the draw the rope's play interferes with the wallside carabiner in unpredictable ways. Faster than you'd imagine the gate is stuck in the hanger. Obviously not desirable. The already mentioned Kong products have a round basket double lock to address this. It's a great product. If you fancy stiff draws, then do it right, and get the Kong's in whatever length you need.

^ This. The sling should be able to move freely in the upper carabiner, otherwise the risk of unclipping or crossloading increases substantially. This is why you shouldn’t climb above panic draws. 

Pino Pepino wrote:

^ This. The sling should be able to move freely in the upper carabiner, otherwise the risk of unclipping or crossloading increases substantially. This is why you shouldn’t climb above panic draws. 

The increased risk is correct, but I don't agree with the blanket "you shouldn't" part. There are lots of times in climbing you make a calculated decision to do something that has higher risk. For instance, in hard sport climbing skipping a hard clip is a common tactic, and that creates a 100% chance the bolt won't catch you. Climbing above a stiff draw increases risk, but it sure is better than skipping the hard clip altogether. 

Instead of saying "you shouldn't", I'd instead say "you should" be aware of the risks and calculate this into your decisions. Context matters too. If that clip were to fail, would that be catastrophic, or just a bigger clean whip? 

I'd agree though that you shouldn't blithely climb above a stiffy draw in a situation where that bolt is mission-critical. But there are lots of other contexts where this isn't the situation.

Mei, what is this? A sport climbing project? Spill the deets!

Mei pronounced as May wrote:

Thanks, but a big NO. 

This quickdraw is for sport free climbing. The main feature is when you hold the dogbone up, the top biner does not flop down like all the quickdraws I've seen.

It seems like the Prog/Frog is the [better] answer, but what about the Panic doesn't fit your criteria?

https://youtu.be/6IJKlkIWJ9k