How exactly is a Kong Panic draw used in big wall climbing?

I've read that people take a stiffy/extendo draw such as a Kong Panic draw up on their big wall climbing. At a quick glance, it makes sense as often times, bolt ladders have big spacing esp. for someone short like me. However, when I think about it closely, I found myself puzzled at how exactly it should be used. 

In free climbing, the sequnce, as I understand it, is: 0) put a rope side biner at the bottom; 1) while climbing, at the good stance but out of the reach of the next bolt, you open the gate, grab the stiff neck on the draw, and reach up to clip; 2) clip rope through the lower biner, which protects the next move; 3) make a move or two higher until you can access the bolt hanger; 4) clip a normal quick draw to the biner and clip the rope; 4) unclip the rope from the Kong Panic draw and remove from the hanger to carry on harness. 3 and 4 might need to be swapped depending on the bolt hanger size and comfort level.

In aid climbing, what's the sequence? Do you preattach your aider to the upper biner before you raise its stiff neck to clip the next bolt? I have the impression that many bolt hangers in big wall bolt ladders are small, so it's not possible to fit two biners in. The Kong Panic biner is even beefier than all other biners. I simply do not see a way in the bolt ladder aiding situation to unweigh this Kong Panic and remove it from the bolt hanger until you've already clipped the next bolt higher up and transfered your weight on to it, but that might need a second Kong Panic. That does not sound right to me. What am I misunderstanding here?

Wouldn't a short stick clip (e.g. homemade using a Superclip on a extendable selfie stick) work better for big wall climbing?  

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

First, you replace the stock Kong biner with a madrock trigger wire biner. 

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If you need to use it twice in a row them you either bring two panics or you get creative to release the one you're standing in. It's not easy but it's certainly doable with extended faffery 

Thanks, Kevin! That makes sense! I didn't know about Mad Rock Trigger Wire biner before! Aid climbing is so much faffery!!!

Reasons to use it: reachy bolt ladders, reachy fixed gear (pitons/heads/etc), ...

Ummm... that, right now, sounds to me like all the big wall routes... 

Considering aid climbing, by definition, is using tools for climbing, I find it indeed weird to hear that tools are being judged. The only tool related ethic violation I can think of that's apparent to even a layperson like me is nailing on climbs that have been commonly clean climbed with modern tools. Otherwise, I only pay attention to ethics discussions such as proper disposal of waste, and being courteous to other people's wall experience (e.g. not blasting music on the wall), etc. 

If you've clipped a panic draw through a bolt that's only big enough to take one krab and you want to get your aider krab directly in the bolt (e.g. so you can get the panic draw back to use on the next move) then this is a way. Probably not the best way, but worked for my short partner on a bolt ladder.

1. Panic draw is clipped to bolt and weighted.

2. Poke a short thin sling through the bolt/hanger, clip the ends so you've basket hitched the bolt. Weight the sling.

3. Easily remove the now unweighted panic draw.

4. Clip the aider krab to the bolt (or a draw if you want to clip it as gear). Try to not put it directly on top of the sling, more to the side if possible.

5. Transfer weight from sling to aider.

6. Optional. Pull the sling out of the bolt, should be relatively easy unless it's really trapped by the aider krab. This can also be done after you've moved on to the next piece.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

That's because aid climbers are a mischievous and horrible lot. Give us an inch and we'll stick clip a mile. Especially if it's on the Nose for some reason. A few examples from Tom Evan's illustrious Stick of the Day series for his El Cap report

Generative AI has this to say about "Stick of the Day":

I applaud the climbers as they are badass enough to be willing to haul up a stick clip with them, and apparently mentally strong enough to not care about Internet teasing (if not shaming) for using one in public display through Tom Evan's spy telescope. On obsecure (hard) aid routes, climbers can take their sweet time figuring out every movement. Many of them probably make yearly, if not monthly or even weekly, pilgrimages up the big stone. On trade routes, most climbers were there to realize a life time dream. It's probably one of the very few times, if not the only time, that they fly around the globe just to have the time of their life trying to get to the top on their precious trip. I can see the point for them to utilize tools such as a stick clip to help make progress. What they do does not negatively impact anyone else's experience, and on the contrary, they moving on helps ease, however slightly, the traffic jam or clusterf**k on those crazy crowded routes. Good on them!!! 

My question was mainly about how to compesate for my short reach on a "normal" bolt ladder where a normal sized climber needs to clip at the top of their reach. I've had some climber friends who have ~2 feet of extra reach on me (Ron came to mind...  we measured when we both stood straight with one arm fully extended up). 

Fell Over wrote:

If you've clipped a panic draw through a bolt that's only big enough to take one krab and you want to get your aider krab directly in the bolt (e.g. so you can get the panic draw back to use on the next move) then this is a way. Probably not the best way, but worked for my short partner on a bolt ladder.

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Thanks, (hopefully not) Fell Over! Okay, that "short thin sling" is key, and it makes sense. I'm glad that there is a way to retrieve the panic draw in case next clip needs it too. I assume all the weight transferring is done by attaching the aider if there is no face feature to use even though it's not explicitly spelled out. 

Practice on well bolted sport routes and you will get good at aiding all kinds of bolt ladders.  It will also help you get the sequence down and make your leads go more smooth on gear as well.

I also think the madrock trigger wire is fantastic.  Very affordable and it's nice that it's a normal size.  

That rig will be of limited usefulness since you’ll be mainly on rivet ladders, not full on bolt ladders.

Get a couple of Skot’s extended rivet hangers aka, Hudon Extenders.

And also, simply learn to top step in your aiders.

The ethics of cheater-sticking only matter to those to whom it matters, but isn't that true of all climbing aspects? There's some kind of rules, unspoken or not, that keep the playing field level.  The first NIAD was done with four pitches fixed.  It was reported that way, so all good.  But if someone claims a new NIAD record and fails to admit that they fixed pitches here and there, it becomes a problem in the microcosm of speed climbing where it's only meaningful if everyone is keeping within certain limits of gear/fixing/etc.

If someone comes into the Caf and says they repeated the super-expando crux aid pitch on your FA, and calls it light duty, your respect for their ascent (and its meaningfulness in whatever social group you're in), will depend a lot on whether they had a cheater stick.

Top stepping and then using a stiffy to reach a rivet because there are no obvious moves in between always makes me wonder how in the hell did the FA drill the hole for the rivet?

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Use a bit of tape and you can attach a rivet hanger to the biner on the panic, aka being creative with what you got. 

you don’t even need to use tape with a small butterfly, the carabiner keeps it on statically enough as is. Then you can clip to the other loop of the hanger to unweight it and you have your draw back to use again with no faffing around.

Cameron J wrote:

you don’t even need to use tape with a small butterfly, the carabiner keeps it on statically enough as is. Then you can clip to the other loop of the hanger to unweight it and you have your draw back to use again with no faffing around.

incredible

Cameron J wrote:

you don’t even need to use tape with a small butterfly, the carabiner keeps it on statically enough as is. Then you can clip to the other loop of the hanger to unweight it and you have your draw back to use again with no faffing around.

Thanks! Your post reminded me to order a butterfly/cinch rivet hanger too. I love these inventions!

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Use a bit of tape and you can attach a rivet hanger to the biner on the panic, aka being creative with what you got.

BITD we used a hook taped to a 2-section tent pole for those reachy pieces.

This thread helped me come up with my solution: The Shortie Stick - A Climber's Solution to Out-of-reach Clips  . For any comment about that stick, please use that thread.

If I were to lead a bolt ladder, I'd rig the aiders on two Mad Rock Trigger Wire biners. That, combined with my Shortie Stick, I think I can just walk up most bolt ladders with ease. I can't wait to get out and test it out. 

I wish Mad Rock made a keyless version of the Trigger Wire biner though. That would be super sweet.

Thanks all for the helpful discussions!