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New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #32
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Of COURSE one can flash, or onsight a TR route. Think about the definition, ascending a route on one's first attempt without weighting the rope and without prior knowledge of the route. Here is South Australia, in the Adelaide hills, many routes have large metal rings cemented into the ground at the top of route. Seetin gup a TR on this and scrambling down to the bottom (not abseiling down as this gives one some beta) allows one to onsight the route. It's as valid as leading it although it's different. As long as one indicates it's a TR onsight not a lead onsight there's no problem. For me, and for many others, trad climbing breaks the flow of climbing. Sports climbing can do that too in a way having the need to clip. TRing is 'JUST' climbing, uninterrupted by placing gear, clipping etc etc. Was it rgold who says he considers TRing at the most pure form of climbing? Sounds silly but when you think about it it makes sense. People who say you can't onsight or flash a route via TR need to get over themselves. That's like people saying indoor bouldering isn't climbing. There are many flavours of climbing which is what makes it so cool. I find many older people gravitate towards indoor TRing (myself included). It's a great social thing, toilets are nearby for those with bladder issues, you don't need to hike anywhere carrying weight which is appreciated by those with bad knees and you have a lot of options from easy warm up routes to hard routes without needing to setup ropes at all. |
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Hi Carl, I always say that Toproping is the "purest" form of rock climbing, for several reasons, particularly the mental realm. Here's an excerpt from the introduction to my book Toproping: "Toproping is the safest way to practice rock climbing techniques. For many enthusiasts it is the most enjoyable form of rock climbing. It's true that bouldering, with its inherent simplicity, is less complicated than toproping, with a great sense of freedom of movement, unfettered by complicated gear and rigging. The only equipment needed is your shoes, chalk bag, and maybe a crash pad with a buddy to spot you while you push your limits in a relatively safe environment. But bouldering is very limiting in another way: The higher you climb above the ground, the scarier it gets. And one thing is certain: When you fall, you hit the ground. Hitting the crash pad from 10 feet off the ground can be a bone-jarring experience. Many of my fellow climbers sustained the most serious injuries of their entire climbing careers because of a fall while bouldering. Lead climbing is challenging both physically and mentally— figuring out not only the moves but also the complexities of protection placements along the way. The mental focus required to lead difficult trad routes is intense, including the psychological aspect that comes into play when you move high above your protection, risking a long leader fall. Sport climbing is less demanding psychologically, allowing you to push physical boundaries, but stopping and clipping a long series of bolts interrupts the purity of the flow. Free soloing has been said to be the purest form of rock climbing, but there is a fine line between the pure joy of fun-in-the-sun rock climbing, moving and flowing up the climb with nothing but air beneath your feet, and the sudden shadow of fear that can take over as quickly as a dark cloud eclipsing the sun. The free soloist faces the possibility of the ultimate irony: falling and dying as a direct result of being afraid to die, knowingly risking life for the pleasure of pure, unfettered freedom of movement." |
Todd Berlier wrote: Take a look at the cable route to the top of Angel's Landing in Zion. Doesn't look like the NPS is overly concerned about safety. |
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Its starting to feel wintery..  |
Idaho Bob wrote: Might find some examples here: Where's Jay? Ha ha... |
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Since there are people here who like to invent meanings for words that are already used to mean something else, I feel the need to expound. I asked Google about this, and it gave me as a definition exactly what I already understand by the word "flash". Here's what it said: " In climbing, a flash is when a climber reaches the top of a route on their first attempt, while having some prior knowledge of the route. This knowledge can come from a variety of sources, such as watching someone else climb the route, reading about it, or receiving advice from a climbing partner." According to that definition, there is no reason why you cannot flash something while climbing on a toprope. If you want to use words to mean something different from their excepted meaning. you should be care careful to inform people what it is you're trying to say (a mathematicians lament). |
Guy Keesee wrote: Anytime. I'm down south :-) |
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I think there is a BIG difference in retro-bolting a badly done sport route that was bolted on rappel and doing the same to a trad route that was done ground up. Often the lack of bolts on a trad route is due to either nowhere to stop and drill, or the cost of adding bolts that were deemed unnecessary. Where as bolts being in the wrong place on a rappel set sport route is just down to the first ascenters being lousy at their job. |
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And now this. This guy is 25 years older than me. facebook.com/share/r/3SyCs7… |
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Jan I fix my ground up routes immediately after sending them. being cheap is no excuse for a lousy bolt job and while being sketched out on lead is expected its easy enough to go back and fix it. Especially now in the days of power drills. I over drill my wedge bolts which you are supposed to do anyways if you read the directions on the box. If the bolt is in a bad spot or not the right spot I just take the hanger off, hammer the stud into the hole and place the bolt where it should have been. When I am done its as perfect as I can do it. Just like being at work. Do a good job every time. |
Greg Opland wrote: Incorrect |
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Nowadays, about 80% of my climbing is either at Sonora Pass areas or in Pinnacles National Park. I have a long, long history at Pinnacles and have done maybe 100 first ascents there (I’ve never counted). Pinnacles has a very well established tradition and history of putting routes up on lead only, while hand drilling. The rock there is sometimes less than perfect and so this process can get pretty exciting at times. It’s pretty unusual these days for a whole area to have a strong, ground-up ethic, but I love the tradition there, for this one highly unique place (I often put routes in top-down here on Sonora Pass, a venue which does not share Pinnacles’ history or tradition at all). During the last 15 to 20 years at Pinnacles, the great majority of new routes established have been well-protected to very well-protected. Sport-bolting protected. And, although I have put up a couple of hair-raisers there, those were mostly done more than 15 years ago and I really like this more modern trend (and I like it more and more with every year of age). On at least a dozen of my more recent FAs at Pinnacles, I’ve kept the trend going by adding bolts after the route’s first lead. Those occasions arise when I’ve been unable to find a drill stance, or hooks, or any form of aid from which to drill. In those situations, I’ve run it out (sometimes way out) and then later, after the climb was completed, added another lead bolt to the resulting “gap” (I added two on one occasion and three once - although on the three, my partner Gavin did the later-bolted runout). In a very real sense, this preserves both the lead bolting tradition, and the well-protected first ascent trend. And, to be clear, since the later-bolted route had been established by the time the bolts are added, I think it is legitimate to make the additions while on rappel. Mostly I’ve done the bolt-adding on the same day as the route is finished. If not the same day, then very soon after. Several of the climbers who’ve been putting up routes at Pinnacles have done the same thing (often with me). It’s kind of become part of the ethic there and we think it works well. |
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And speaking of aging, I had a “kids nowadays” moment today that made me smile (eventually). I recently got a core shot in my 60 meter rope. So today I called our local climbing shop and spoke with a great young guy named Peter. Peter is everything somebody working in retail should be: kind, courteous and on the ball. Peter gave me details about what ropes were in stock and then we chatted to catch up. Somehow, the subject of my upcoming birthday came up and I told him that I'd be 64 later this month. I then asked Peter if he’d “still love me.” Long silence. Eventually, he stammered: “yes, of course.” The silent gap gave it away: I asked him if he understood the reference. He did not. I sang a verse for him (badly). He’d never heard of it. Yes, he’d “heard of the Beatles,” he told me, but he didn’t know anything about any of their songs. Sigh. |
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Heh! I had a similar moment yesterday, though with a more eclectic band that Gen Z could reasonably be excused for not being familiar. I was at the dealership having some work done on my Outback, and the rep I was interacting with asked about my T-shirt. I was wearing a shirt with the iconic graphic of Marc Bolan from the T Rex album Electric Warrior. He said, ‘cool shirt…is that Slash playing guitar?’ I smiled slightly and said no, it was T Rex, a pivotal glam rock band. He looked quizzical, grabbed his phone, and quickly pulled up a T Rex video…and said ‘whoa…that’s glam rock’. I didn’t go any further with the convo, but left thinking maybe…just maybe…he might broaden his understanding of the musical world by diving deeper into this stuff. |
Nick Goldsmith wrote: I agree now days. But back in the day when we were broke dirtbag climbers, it was a real fact of lfe that you would only put bolts in you felt you needed to keep from dying cause you couldn't afford to put 15 bolts on a pitch. And if you want to go back up and add bolts to your own routes, that is fine but to me says you care more about what other people think of your route than how you did it. Maybe that is how it is now days but it doesn't mean I would act the same way. |
Brad Young wrote: A classic. Speaking of which I heard someone singing a Cranberries song the other day, and another person shouted, “Wow, you know the words!”. They’d both been born AFTER the song had long lost popularity. I just kept silent and sent one of the Touchstone board climbs then sank back into a hole in the corner of the gym. Double sigh… |
Bob Gaines wrote: I wonder if normally there is a process of objective assessment by the NPS to determine if a valid bolt replacement is required ? Do they go out and actually climb the route and conclude: " Oh yeah this bolt needs to be replaced lest someone prangs on that block down below" If there is NOT such an independent assessment ,well , it seems they must rely on some sort of undetermined honor system, which , in the case of Mr. Gaines would work quite well as a matter of course, for reasons that are clear. Other than that it would seem they are merely doing what bureaucratic entities do best : which is to generate regulations to generate paperwork and to further extend and solidify control over their self-perpetuating mandate. As for the. "add a bolt" or "retro-bolt" regulation it appears the NPS is readily capable of an almost parental type of oversight - in which they had to come up with something-- so why not a permission slip from someone who likely gave up climbing 20 years ago, almost died in a car accident, might require a private-eye to track down, then was finally uncovered by forensic genealogy living in an abandoned ghost town somewhere in northern Michigan. |
Brian in SLC wrote: Hi Brian, I have opted to have MP ignore some of the folks on this thread since they are clearly idiots, as Jan pointed out, so I haven't seen all I should to know clearly what you asking. But I will hazard a guess and my answer is only an idiot would suggest NPS or BLM or USFS would require retrobolting for safety. Can you say assumption of liability? What is the logical end point of such an action? Give me a holler if you get JT, Brian. Would like to climb with you and am much impressed by your climbing accomplishments. You have climbed everywhere! |
Brad Young wrote: Ha ha! Funny. Creep!! Time you changed your last name isn't it? |
Carl Schneider wrote: Nah. I intend to die Young. |
