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Custom ice tool wing suggestions

Original Post
Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35

Hi all,

I have my eyes set on some rime climbing objectives for next winter, but no wings to climb them with. I own north machines and dark machines, but when I asked grivel about their wing options I was told that none would come to market by them. Obviously, crafting my own is the logical next step. 

I ordered picks with the hammer/adze extension from Kuznia, and my rough plan is to utilize one/both of the holes, plus one more that I drill myself, and mount the wings on L brackets. I haven't used wings before myself, so I would love to hear opinions on surface area, angle, positioning, material, etc, before I continue. 

Thanks, 

Nick

Jakob Melchior · · Basel, CH · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0

strange that Grivel isn't producing their wings anymore since they were only released quite recently if I remember correctly. https://grivel.com/products/wings

During a 2 second search I found this one italien shop that seems to have them in stock https://www.sestogrado.it/it/prodotto/grivel-wings-vario-sistema-lama-pala-per-piccozze-vario/

Otherwise, I don't have much to add to your question regarding custom options. Do you need to be able to take them off easily or do you plan to just leave them on all day?

Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35

Ideally they can be taken on and off without too much hassle, but that is one of my lower priorities. 

It was August when I last searched and reached out to grivel. Maybe the rep was misinformed or maybe something changed. Either way I honestly haven't tried searching since they got back to be.

I'll probably continue to make my own even if I pick up a pair from grivel, mostly because I have the kuznia picks and the rest of the wings should be cheap. Thanks Jakob.

Jim Clarke · · Fruitland, UT · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 2,423

Would anyone have a picture of previously built wing attachments? Have a manufacturer that might be able to make them...

Sam Bedell · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 443
Nick Sheldon wrote:

I have my eyes set on some rime climbing objectives for next winter

What objectives?

Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35
Sam Bedell wrote:

What objectives?

I'm planning on a trip back Patagonia next winter and the Ragni is at the top of the bucket list.

Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35

These are the Petzl and BD wings that were never commercially available. 

And here are Grivel wings

I realize that wings are available for rent in El Chalten. I still think that building a pair would be fun.

Jedrzej Jablonski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2021 · Points: 0

Here are wings for xdreams that were never commercially available:

Exiled Michigander · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2018 · Points: 252

Anyone have a video of these in use?  Trying to imagine when they'd be beneficial.

NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 1
Exiled Michigander wrote:

Anyone have a video of these in use?  Trying to imagine when they'd be beneficial.

Rime ice. Most commonly they are used on the Patagonian peaks, but there are other some places where they could be of benefit due to the ice structure. 

Stiles · · the Mountains · Joined May 2003 · Points: 845

I saw a well done homeade set in Alaska that were constructed for Infinite Spur. I was jealous

LL Biner · · Reno, NV · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 0

I remember many,many years ago, I found a ramp above a glacier pond, I was on a ravine off 90 Washington state.

So I started this very steep frozen ice,about 50' up, soon I placed an axe tool that broke through, that's when the place realised was ice over condensed frozen snowfield.

I started traversing onto a snowfield, and went home.

Never again.

I don't know what you're looking for

Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35
Jedrzej Jablonski wrote:

Here are wings for xdreams that were never commercially available:

Thanks JJ. Do you have any feedback from the eliteclimb prototypes that you'd be willing to share?

Sam Bedell · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 443
Exiled Michigander wrote:

Anyone have a video of these in use?  Trying to imagine when they'd be beneficial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNNtXFuI_RQ

Jedrzej Jablonski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2021 · Points: 0
Nick Sheldon wrote:

Thanks JJ. Do you have any feedback from the eliteclimb prototypes that you'd be willing to share?

I wasn't involved in making the eliteclimb ones and I haven't climbed on them. It looks cool how easily they can be attached, but I have no idea if they are as good for climbing as more standard, bolt-on options. 

Charlie Ward · · Switzerland · Joined Dec 2023 · Points: 0

Those X-Dream ones are hilarious. Someone just found a piece of angled alu extrusion and went mad with a drill press. It's interesting to see the different approaches here. BD ones are much further back, centred over the shaft. Petzl have gone for machined and bent alu plate, BD steel, Grivel waterjet steel and a specfic pick. 

I think if you found a local waterjet or laser then cutting some steel sheet with some well placed bends would get you a very workable solution with minimal effort. 

Exiled Michigander · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2018 · Points: 252
Sam Bedell wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNNtXFuI_RQ

Thanks, Sam!

4:00 mark if anyone else wants to see them in use.

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 25

Yeah, those X dream ones look more like a nightmare.  It’d be interesting (but very limited market here) to create a suitable test medium for design and development outside of a Patagonian peak.  Seems like ski hills have/ could create good rime ice facsimile with the snow making equipment   

All the wings look a bit needlessly over-sized and beefy to me, but that’s just armchair postulating.  

Now how about “rime pro” ?   Some fluke like thing you hammer in….is anything even attempted now?

Sam Bedell · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 443
Mark Pilate wrote:

Yeah, those X dream ones look more like a nightmare.  It’d be interesting (but very limited market here) to create a suitable test medium for design and development outside of a Patagonian peak.  Seems like ski hills have/ could create good rime ice facsimile with the snow making equipment   

All the wings look a bit needlessly over-sized and beefy to me, but that’s just armchair postulating.  

Now how about “rime pro” ?   Some fluke like thing you hammer in….is anything even attempted now?

Mt. Hood has rime all winter and it's a straightforward hike up the ski hill to get to steeper terrain that is coated with it. This is probably the best venue for climbing rime in North America (not that you really want to do that). The problem is that the consistency of the rime can vary quite a bit and so your testing would be inconsistent, but if you lab test on a consistent medium that is not going to be representative of real conditions either.

RE a fluke: I would not trust any form of pro in rime to hold a fall. "Terrain" belays where you tunnel through or wrap the rope around macro features is what most people do when they can't dig down to rock or solid ice... or just don't fall.

Erik J · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2019 · Points: 0

A buddy of mine and I were talking about these last season. He ended up not needing them but I put some thought into making some for him and made some sketches of designs. 

I think the easiest way to make these would be with a service like Sendcutsend.They offer, amongst other things, cutting and bending of metal sheets based on designs you submit. I got as far as making some very rough designs in Fusion and uploading them for an instant quote; Depending on finish options and complexity, I got quoted ~100-170$ CAD per tool; of course this gets cheaper with larger orders. 

The float itself is very easy to design, IMO the attachment method is the hard part and depends largely on the tool and brand. 

Petzl tools for example look pretty easy to mount floats to as they have a circular carabiner hole and the picks have more circular holes in them. Petzl has already done the obvious in their design with a large bolt and maybe a bushing in the carabiner hole, and a small bolt in the pick. Some sort of toolless nut like a wing nut or cam lever nut for easy tightening and removal. It would just be a matter of measuring the spacing of the holes and offset of the head/pick.

Picks with non circular holes in the heads and picks would be more difficult to design around. See the Cassin X dreams for example. 

I'm a total punter when it comes to ice and winter climbing so don't understand the nuance of what you'd want out of floats. Figuring out design criteria like what Nick mentioned about surface area, angle of attack, etc would be a good place to start. I enjoy tinkering around and designing stuff like this though; if anyone's seriously stoked and wants to actually try making a few sets get in touch. 

I've attached a few images of the sketches I made. They're very rough; the purpose of them was to ballpark costs. The one "entire" float was to see how the increased geometry of the weight removal holes affected the price, the second one was to see the cost of making a pair of wings for each tool as this would be easier to mount. I forget the exact quotes I got but it seemed very reasonable. 

 

Shepido · · CO · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 50

Agree on send cut send, just make your own. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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