Advice on Becoming a Guide

What’s up MP. Been saving up the past couple months for my AMGA guiding cert and I’d appreciate some advice on people currently working in the field before I pull the trigger. My somewhat far-fetched goal is to open my own guiding service off Hwy 4 in the Sierras, although that is so incredibly far down the path I’m not considering logistics for that yet. My current goal is to get my rock guiding cert and guide for multi-pitch clients as I’d probably be most fulfilled with that type of work.

I’ve been told that most clients, and therefore most money, are from single-pitch guiding jobs. This is currently anecdotal data and I’d like some confirmation on this. I understand it’s going to take a long while for any sustainable career to gain traction, and although I’d rather get my cert to do multi-pitch guiding, it does cost almost double than the SPI cert. As I’m in the beginning phase of establishing myself as a guide, is it more prudent to gain experience with just an SPI license as well as gain a client base that way, until I’ve established a stronger career? Or am I limiting myself marketing to guiding services by only being able to do that type of work? 

On the note of being employable, besides having the cert what other skills and attributes do guiding services look for in a guide? My current rock guiding experience has all been “under the table” without certs- I’m not sure if that’s really a presentable resume tick I’d want to show to legitimate guiding services. My authorized guiding experience is primarily working as a tour guide at a local cave system. Obviously not nearly as intensive as rock guiding, but I do deal with guests that have health/mobility/stress and fear issues daily with a pretty professional and friendly demeanor.

I also would love to talk to someone who guides locally in the area I live in, to get an idea of the volume of work throughout the year and what their typical guiding jobs consist of. At some point, I think I’ll call some local guiding services to my area, but I’d like a little more background first so I can make the most of these phone calls.

Would appreciate any comments, DMs, or even a phone call if you’d be willing to give me your time would be appreciated.

Thanks, Ally 

Have you talked to Aaron Johnson? 

Jabroni McChufferson wrote:

Have you talked to Aaron Johnson? 

This, absolutely, as it relates to guiding in the Bear Valley area. Aaron will have a very deep perspective on this.

Your success in this field will start with reasonable expectations- depending on how you define ‘sustainable’, rock guiding is pretty far from providing the kind of long term stable income that is necessary for even a modest quality of living, let alone a solid future. YMMV, of course.

Unless you develop a strong following of clients who are looking for private guiding on multi-pitch rotues (this is pretty hard to do, even for seasoned guides with strong name recognition), you are probably correct that most of your work (and therefore, $$) will come from single pitch cragging clients in groups, teaching beginning climbing, protection placement, anchors, and some of the skills necessary to begin multi-pitch climbing. AMGA Rock Guide certification is far beyond the cert needed to teach these skills, though having the experience to complete it will make you a skilled guide- if you can afford the expense of the course and the testing.

Initial advice - Don't do it.

Additional input - 

As for the SPI vs Multi certs:  You're right that most of the client base and work is all going to be single pitch days.  The goal you're describing typically comes about when guides have established lots of strong relationships with return clients that have long term goals, which they see a guide being part of. It's hard to come by, and takes a lot of skill and time to cultivate.  Another big thing that comes to mind is the availability of both terrain and client interest.  Hwy 4 will be lean on  both of those, but you're not too far from Yosemite (which involves it's own set of hurdles to navigate).

Regardless of what you want in the long run, the short answer is - get your SPI, get hired by a guide service and start working.  You'll need experience to build the skills, prerequisites between courses, and also feel out if the career is really for you.  It's usually pretty different than many people imagine it will be.  It would be difficult to get hired and start working in a multipitch environment day 1.  Guiding in that setting is much more difficult to do well than anyone thinks it is, and there's a lot of soft skills and nuance to pick up there even in a cragging environment.

You'll also need a WFR cert (or WEMT but it's slightly less relevant).  

As far as price, it's much more than double the cost to be a Certified Rock Guide than a SPI.  To guide multipitch rock, you can do so with just the Rock Guide Course completed, but that requires working under supervision of a certified Rock Guide (which could be direct or indirect).  If you want to operate under the guidelines as it sounds, you wouldn't be able to take the RGC and go guide multipitch alone (unless I'm misunderstanding you.)

I think your experience is still relevant to share with potential employers if you're in a position now where you want to pursue training and certification in a professional setting and that comes across clearly.

It's been a few years since I left the industry, but I bet at least 50% of that is still relevant.  God speed.

Thank you guys for the thoughtful responses! I wasn’t familiar with Aaron but he’s definitely in my neighborhood so I appreciate the lead.

I’m pretty privileged in that “sustainable” is a flexible standard for me. My cost of living is ridiculously low- I can live fairly comfortably off minimum wage guiding and the occasional gig job. I don’t expect to buy a house with my guiding money, at least not for the first several years.

Ultimately I’d want to be a multi-pitch guide. I’ve pretty happy currently as a tour guide but it can get monotonous sometimes doing the same standard tour every day- I imagine much would be the same as an SPI. But you both pointing out not just the financial benefit of starting out as an SPI, but the buildup of experience and client base, is also what I needed to hear.

I gotta look at the rock guide standards again though- I wasn’t aware I’d have to work under a rock guide to do multipitch guiding if I had the cert myself. Not sure if the Multi Pitch Instructor cert existed during your time as a guide, almostrad, but that’s what I was referring to. Thanks for the heads up!

Ally, I've been in the Outdoor/Adventure Education industry most of my adult life, ranging from being an instructor or guide for various mountain/climbing activities, to management and ownership of several programs. From the standpoint of a life experience, this choice has brought tremendous, unique experiences that would be hard to find elsewhere. The only real regret I have in this career path has been the fact that I didn't prioritize sustainability enough along the way, just kinda figuring it would solve itself as I went along. Start thinking about sustainability now- have an alternative career path available to you if/when you find that the guiding career isn't working for you any longer, and start building a financial future for yourself right now. (Figure out a way to buy a house!)

apogee wrote:

Ally, I've been in the Outdoor/Adventure Education industry most of my adult life, ranging from being an instructor or guide for various mountain/climbing activities, to management and ownership of several programs. From the standpoint of a life experience, this choice has brought tremendous, unique experiences that would be hard to find elsewhere. The only real regret I have in this career path has been the fact that I didn't prioritize sustainability enough along the way, just kinda figuring it would solve itself as I went along. Start thinking about sustainability now- have an alternative career path available to you if/when you find that the guiding career isn't working for you any longer, and start building a financial future for yourself right now. (Figure out a way to buy a house!)

Ahh I hear it. I’ve been at that crossroads in my life for a hot minute. I actually have an engineering degree and did that pretty successfully working for several years. I was also insanely depressed the whole time. Now the pendulum has swung so far to the other side where I’m living in a trailer that’s constantly falling apart…but I’m really really happy. It’s hard to even consider going back to the 9-5. I enrolled in some GIS classes at the local community college but I posted this because I’m tempted to just go full throttle into getting into guiding. It just felt like I was splitting my efforts into two completely different directions and I’m not effectively working at both. Appreciate the ghost-of-Christmas-future-esque perspective while I mull over dropping this semester though

Get the WFR and the SPI. It is affordable and start working guiding and build your business on the side. Having basic certifications as those in the industry...can get you doors open (also if you are seasoned) overseas as well. The 4:1 ratio in a SPI day of work...it is not bad....at all.

Hey Ally, 

The certification process and details are pretty well outlined on the AMGA website, I'd definitely recommend taking some time to read through all the info there. Realize that the Multi-pitch Instructor Cert limits you to routes which are 400 feet or 4 pitches or less if you want to stay within the scope of practice. It is also required that you take and complete the SPI Course/Exam even if you've already done the Rock Guide Course to take the MPI exam. The Rock Guide Cert has an unlimited scope, so long as you aren't operating in that's glaciated or alpine in nature. It's the only way to become a fully "certified guide" for rock terrain in the eyes of the AMGA. Both paths will require the Rock Guide Course to start. The Rock Guide cert will require an additional 10 day course before taking your exam while the MPI has the course and exam wrapped into an 8 day session. 

To complete the Rock Guide Track you're looking at a minimum of 12 grand in tuition in addition to whatever costs are associated with travel and prep.

I think the SPI Course and Exam are a great place to start, and a much more economical way to dip your toes into guiding at $1000-$1200 for the course and exam.

I'm a Certified Rock Guide and Guide Service Owner, multi-pitch trips can be a lot of fun and typically pay more from the guide service than your standard single pitch trip. On the guide service side of things conversely there's typically more profit margin in the high ratio single pitch trips than there is in the inherently low ratio (1 or 2 clients per guide) multi-pitch trips. While single pitch guiding can get monotonous, multi-pitch guiding day in and day out can be physically taxing, I find myself still doing a mix of both. 

Ally, 

TLDR; Get your WFR and some level of formal training (SPI or Rock Guide Course), then start working with clients.

Longer Answer:

Some great info already! I'm excited you're interested in exploring this path.  Here are a few throughts:

• Determine WHY you want to guide.

What inspires you to do this, and is doing it professionally the right path.  It’s not for many people.  It’s not uncommon for people to get into it and leave for a variety of reasons.

2. Decide WHAT you want to guide.

Determine what level of Rock Scope you want to work in.  Knowing what sort of experiences you want to share with your guests will dictate what training and certifications you will need. If you really want to work in Multipitch terrain, I'd start going down that track.

3. Decide if you REALLY like guiding.

This is tricky, because I think you need to work a few years/seasons to really determine if it is worth the investment, but it’s hard to get work with any sort of legitimate operation without certifications. This is one reason, getting an SPI first is a decent idea. It's relatively inexpensive and quick and the skillset and resume needed to pursue this program are also significantly easier. I do think it’s an easy way to get your foot in the door and start working with actual clients.  The real client experience will give you a better idea if this profession is for you.  If you get your MPI or become an Apprentice Rock Guide (completion of the RGC) you will also have access to working with clients, but the process is more involved than the SPI.

4. Pursue Training and Certification in the disciplines (Scope) you want to work. 

Develop your skills in each of the disciplines you want to work. A great first step is to read through the AMGA website, and more importantly, download the resume templates and start filling them out!

Here is a template for the AMGA Rock Guide Course RESUME (the first program in the Mountain Guide track).

Hi Ally--

I'm not a guide, but I am one of the folks who hires alpine guides for long objectives. I always ask them a lot of questions, and I'm sure they censor their answers a bit, but it has let me see things both up close, and at arm's length. I have tried to compile my thoughts into a few questions.

Do you have a desire to start a family? Guiding can provide a workable income for one, and a solid income if pooling expenses with a significant other and living on the cheap. Guiding is a very, very hard career for people with kids. In addition to not making much money, the hours, insurance, and sick leave situations are less than ideal. If you are going to spend 5 years building a client base for longer guided expeditions, then have to take a break to have kids, that will make things really hard. It's a double whammy for women, which isn't fair, but it is what it is.

Does the banality of everyday life wear on you a lot, and kill your passion for things? Early in my career I was considering working in conservation, and I did a couple internships. I saw that in order to move up, you had to take bureaucratic office jobs, and even in entry-level positons, there was lots of red tape. I didn't want the red tape to ruin something I loved, the outdoors. I went into teaching science in the classroom and saved the outdoors for my hobbies as an escape. Upon reflection, I think this was a great decision for me. But I've seen people for whom it works the other way. As far as guiding goes, do you think having to do long guiding days on mediocre routes with annoying clients would kill some of your passion for climbing? For some, it would. For others, it wouldn't. Single-pitch guiding is probably a great way to get a feeling for this.

How old are you? OK, weird question, I know, and please don't answer it on the forums. I'm 38, and I found my brain changed a TON when I hit my late twenties. I just didn't make decisions the way I used to, I became much more conservative in my decision-making (becoming a dad at the same time probably contributed too). Women's cerebral cortexes usually mature earlier than men's, but if you are still in your early 20s, it's hard to know how you'll feel when you hit 30. Keep in mind that "future you" may weigh the scales differently. Edit: just saw you are mid-30's on your profile. Don't discount the possibility of early stages of mid-life crisis. For a lot of my friends (and myself), the early-to-mid-30s were really hard). Thoughts of: can I really do this bull____ for another 30 years??

With these questions in mind, my suggestion would be to try guiding out in a low-opportunity-cost way (SPI, maybe get a multi-pitch mentor and try a few) and see how you like it. But try to do so in a way that doesn't close doors for you in the future. It seems a lot of guides move on from the career after several years, and you don't want to slam doors you may want to walk through later.

Then again, I may be ignorant enough about parts of the guiding experience that my answer isn't helpful. I hope at least some of it is useful!

Have you spoken to Tim Keating?  He has the climbing guide company in Bear Valley Lodge. He also does trips all over the world with other companies.

Baby steps, baby steps.  Start with SPI and WFR.  Then sometime before the SPI cert expires, take the RGC.  That will count as SPI re-certification (in lieu of taking the 2 day SPI exam again), and as mentioned above, you can guide some multipitch routes "under supervision".  If all goes well, then consider the full Rock Guide or MPI cert.

You will most likely have to join an established guide service at least for the first year or more. Keep your eyes and ears open there to get an understanding of the costs associated with the business: accreditation, permits, equipment, insurance, salary and benefits, and so on. There is a reason why guides only get 50% (or less) of the client fees.  Don't neglect your own personal health insurance as well; you may think you're immortal and never get sick or injured, but.

While your poring through the AMGA info, keep an eye out for scholarship opportunities or other $ support. There is a serious need for more women (and LGBTQ/BIPOC) guides, and I have seen a few programs that attempt to fill the gap.

Woaaaaah maybe I’m a cynic of the World Wide Web but I definitely was expecting more of that MP-branded vitriol and humor, this is all great advice and direction to consider so I truly appreciate every thoughtful response so far. Jason and Phillip, it’s been hard for me to outline and clearly verbalize the “why’s” and justifications for most of my life decisions so I like your input.

I actually really enjoy taking beginners out climbing. It’s awesome to be one of the first people to provide an experience in something I’m passionate about with new people who wouldn’t otherwise go out climbing, whether it be city people who don’t get out much, or women who’ve had trepidation about partnering with unknown dudes on long multipitches. I’ve definitely gotten people through their moments of fear and panic attacks and the breakthrough I help them with is super rewarding. I work as a cave guide and getting kids from nervous and scared to super psyched at the end is really rad.

As for my personal life, I struggle GREATLY with normal 9-5s. Trust me, I’d be so happy if I could settle with a regular job that has good security and benefits and just do climbing as a hobby. There’s an assured future in that. But it’s hard to work full time jobs that I can’t enjoy and find love in. Been much happier pursuing fun jobs like tour guiding and supplementing that with the occasional manual labor/gig work. I’m also suuuuper privileged in this regard- I don’t want kids, and I don’t have any family/loved ones to support except for a couple of cats. I’m really just responsible for myself.

I guess my biggest takeaway is what you’ve succinctly said Gunkie, which is baby steps. I’m 34 and I see all of my friends finding career and financial success so my brain wants to think long term- starting my own guiding business and focusing on larger backpacking/multipitch expeditions. But I’m fairly ignorant of the waves and tides of this industry, including the important financials. The overlap of the different climbing AMGA certs I wasn’t super clear on either so thank you all for the clarification. Starting off with an SPI, getting my feet wet, and networking with locals who are more versed with what makes a successful guiding business in my area sounds like the smartest foot forward. I’ve heard that there were scholarships/funding for BIPOC women but I haven’t heavily pursued that- that’s where my imposter syndrome kicks in where I don’t know why I should deserve that funding over plenty of others in my demographic. But I guess I’m really in no place to turn down free money.

Guiding is super rewarding, but definitely make sure you're in it to educate not climb.

 Work on soft skills, its customer service (which is sounds like you are already). 

Get some experience working for someone. There's a lot of logistics and things you might not think about coming from a more recreational climbing background. (regardless if you've taken beginners out). 

The SPI is a great start and will get your feet wet, but definitely look for higher end education if you plan on going the AMGA route or work for most guide services. You have way more options even if it's for down the road. As stated most services you'll be on the beginner outings and crag work, but if you have the skills to take on more its much easier to work you way up and to stay in SOP you'll need it. 

Whatever the grade minimum is for your course and your intended area for work make sure you are solid, not just barely making the grade. You'll want/need reserves in the tank for challenging days or long runs without days off. Its hard to take good care of yourself, a guest and all of the logistics for the day if you are redlining.

It's feast and famine so you need to be able to take it when it's good and deal with long drought periods. It's greatly helpful if you can move around seasonly working the guide season if you really want to make it a long term sustainable endeavor without supplemental income. 

Make sure you are an employee of a company not an independent contractor if you want to have any of the security of Workmans comp, health care for work related injuries, or unemployment. 

Good luck, I got into it later on and am glad I did but it's not the easiest path. 

Ally L wrote:

I’ve heard that there were scholarships/funding for BIPOC women but I haven’t heavily pursued that- that’s where my imposter syndrome kicks in where I don’t know why I should deserve that funding over plenty of others in my demographic. But I guess I’m really in no place to turn down free money.

Unless you have good reason to believe that you are less deserving than any other potential applicant, I would recommend that you apply for any scholarships that you qualify for and let the scholarship committee decide whether or not you deserve the funding.

(I am pretty sure that the selection process is not simply "put all the names in a hat", and even if it were, that's not your fault)

mbk wrote:

Unless you have good reason to believe that you are less deserving than any other potential applicant, I would recommend that you apply for any scholarships that you qualify for and let the scholarship committee decide whether or not you deserve the funding.

(I am pretty sure that the selection process is not simply "put all the names in a hat", and even if it were, that's not your fault)

Yes, definitely apply!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here yet, is that the bottleneck for American guiding isn't certifications, insurance, staffing, clients, or anything like that; it's commercial use permits. Get permits for what you want to guide as soon as possible. Whether that's through the BLM, USFS, State land, whatever, get them. They're usually based on user days so if you aren't guiding yet they're quite cheap. However, land managers usually limit the number of permit holders to a given area before they limit user days, so maintaining permits is paramount. If you have permits, and don't want them anymore, you can usually sell/transfer them to another prospective guide company, if your interests/direction changes. However, you cannot guide without permits, so get them now if you're thinking about starting a guide service in the future.

I don't know how the guiding traffic works where you are.

The lowest cost option, actually negative cost, to start, is to contact a local guide service and say you want to help out (work) as a belayer on a large group day. You get a feel for the guide service, how they do things, what the work can be like, and you get paid a little bit too. You are just an assistant to the guide(s) so you don't need WFR or any guiding certs.

Different areas will get different amounts and types of work. So if your area gets a lot of single pitch, but multipitch is what tends to fulfill you, that could be rough.

Here at Red Rock, most work tends to be 1-2 people, single pitch, and half or full days. We get a fair amount of 1-2ppl multipitch. We get maybe 8 groups a year where its 10+ clients. Its very temperature dependent seasonally. Half days essentially only in the summer, to chase shade. Full days pop up more in the cooler months. Oct-April is more busy, with some very busy weeks. Summer is close to dead. If we had wetsuits we could probably capitalize on a small amount of canyoneering, but the logistics to make it reasonable for clients would be interesting. Large groups are rare.

At Enchanted Rock, TX... it was probably 70% large groups. BSA, GSA, YMCA, etc... 2-4 guides, splitting up the group to keep group size down, some guides hiking out early to set routes. Running kids through belayed rappels for the 1 climb, 1 belay, 1 rappel needed for the merit badge. Big groups tend to mean big tips, after the split per guide, $50-100 per guide wasn't uncommon. 1-4ppl groups still happened, but they were not anywhere near as common as at Red Rock. Multipitch was rare.

Different areas will mean different things logistically too.

Here, clients meet up with their guide, sign waivers, and get fitted for shoes, harness, helmet at our gear shop, then either carpool with the guide or drive separate to Red Rock.

For Enchanted Rock, TX. There, you drive 1h45min from Austin, TX, you leave stupid early to get there and into the park before others if possible, you have all the shoes, harnesses, and helmets with you and your clients show up there to be fitted in the parking lot. If its a large group, one or two guides hike in to set up ropes ahead of time. If the clients no show, you still get paid... but you drove all the way out there for nothing, and now need to drive back.

We have several guides here year round. They all have other jobs. We also get some guides who come work seasonally. Most will sign on with more than just our guide service to be sure they get enough gigs.

Here we have a google calendar we populate with gigs as they come in and we reach out and have to hear back from guides to see who is available. Playing phone tag like this is not ideal. In TX the service I worked for used, "WhenToWork", all or most of the guides would be emailed when a gig was available, and you respond if you are available to work it or not, then the guide service owner would choose the guide(s) best suited who was actually available and assign it, then everyone else knew they were off the hook quickly. It worked pretty well. There are several different software's and web portals that guide services use to actually book things. Going modern has benefits and will probably get you more clients and be a better experience for the guides to actually use. You want to know the pricing structure they use and the logistics. Sometimes if your clients are having an awesome time and don't want to stop, you can have them upgrade to a full day while they are out with you, etc...

Trying to live and guide only in one area... will not likely work too well in the off season, unless you can also guide off season activities or have another job. If you have another job, its fine, you just may have schedule conflicts. If its a M-F job, it can be old to almost always give up a weekend day to guiding. Many guides, if they are only guiding for income, travel to guide different places and guide different disciplines during their different peak seasons. Rock, Alpine, Hiking or Mountaineering summitting where its mostly just hiking, Ski/Board, Mountain Bike, etc...

Finally... guiding climbing... you are frequently at the mercy of a gumby belayer. "Soloing with rope drag." There are many ways you must try to mitigate this (instruction on the ground, demonstration, GriGri, backup belayer if available, etc...), but to some extent you can rarely fully trust your belayer unless they are a repeat client or in situations where they are obviously quite experienced, but they are travelling and couldn't find a partner, etc... Some areas you will tend to lead to set up ropes, others you will tend to scramble or walk up and set up ropes. Its worth weighing how you will feel with clients belaying you, when you can't always trust your clients to belay you well.