Ice axe type and length for approach route with glaciers and frozen streams

This is in the context of self-supported Himalayan expeditions. We break it down in two parts - 1) approach march for 2-4 days till base camp or ABC. 2) the actual climbing on the mountain.

Beyond the approach march to base camp or ABC, it is usual technical and/or classical mountaineering. So we carry a Petzl Quark, climbing boots, ropes, etc. in the pack.

The approach march is 95-98% a regular hike but involving a few frozen mountain streams, glacial streams, and small patches of hard glacier. These tricky sections are often highly exposed and hence very risky. In crampons, this would be trivial terrain. But we wear hiking boots on the approach. A good hiking pole is quite sufficient for support but completely inadequate in case of a fall. A fall could lead to slipping into the abyss/valley beside the mountain and potentially dying or being badly injured. So the ability to self arrest is critical. Roping up or bringing out the climbing boots and crampons for a few meters of low angled ice is not realistic. So hiking boots + ice axe is the best option.

I am trying to figure out what kind of ice axe pick and shaft length is suitable for the tricky exposed sections of the approach.  This ice axe will also be used for plunging on the easy slopes on the mountain. For the harder technical parts, we carry the Quark.

A straight glacier axe is good for this but less useful on the mountain. So, I'm considering a hybrid, like the Petzl Summit. My height is around 170 cm. The 59 cm Petzl Summit comes right to the top of my ankle bone.

For this use-case would you recommend an ankle-length ice axe or something longer (like heel-length)? 

PS - In these parts, people sometimes wear a harness if the approach is tricky - presumably to make rescue easier. It is also common to leash the ax (to the harness).

PPS - I'll be carrying a full load - 20+ kg.

Bring micro spikes or lightweight universal binding crampons. Will you also be climbing anything remotely technical? If not I'd go for a longer axe. If yes, maybe still. Shorter ice axes are good for climbing but kind of suck on low angle glacial terrain. 

Victor Machtel wrote:

Bring micro spikes or lightweight universal binding crampons. Will you also be climbing anything remotely technical? If not I'd go for a longer axe. If yes, maybe still. Shorter ice axes are good for climbing but kind of suck on low angle glacial terrain. 

Yes, the actual climb is technical. So I have a Quark in the pack. 

When you say long, do you mean ankle length or longer still? 

Micro spikes or universal crampons - I'm not a fan of, because it's useless on the mountain itself and so it's just added weight when we already have heavy packs.

Y C wrote:

Yes, the actual climb is technical. So I have a Quark in the pack. 

When you say long, do you mean ankle length or longer still? 

Ankle length should be good. Long enough to plunge on low angle to moderate snow, short enough so it's not in the way. 

Micro spikes or universal crampons - I'm not a fan of, because it's useless on the mountain itself and so it's just added weight when we already have heavy packs.

I get that, but depending on glacier conditions crossing them on hiking boots without anything underneath is going to suck, even more so because of those bonkers heavy packs. Bare ice and hiking boots don't really get along. Worst case scenario you're looking at self arresting while wearing a 20kg pack, I'd do anything to make sure that doesn't happen and wearing spiky bits makes that so much easier.  

But wait, what kind of a climb is this? You're bringing one Quark, but no crampons, and you're wearing approach shoes or hiking boots? 

Victor Machtel wrote:

Ankle length should be good. Long enough to plunge on low angle to moderate snow, short enough so it's not in the way. 

The use case is both walking and plunging.

Victor Machtel wrote:

But wait, what kind of a climb is this? You're bringing one Quark, but no crampons, and you're wearing approach shoes or hiking boots? 

Ay ay ay... Sorry for the miscommunication. To keep things brief, I thought to restrict the scope of the question to only the approach march but ended up creating confusion. I'll update the OP. 

Crampons (Petzl Sarkens) are in the pack. As are proper mountaineering boots. And a tent, butane stove/canisters, etc etc. This is for self-supported Himalayan expeditions for 5500 - 6500 meter peaks. 

The approach route till Base Camp or ABC is basically a hike with some patches of glaciated terrain, lots of moraines, some frozen streams, etc. 95-98% of it is a regular hike and will be done with hiking boots and a pole. For the other 2-5% it is tedious to bring out the climbing boots and crampons, so we make do with hiking boots and ice axe.

Beyond ABC, it is proper technical or semi-technical mountaineering. So the hiking boots and poles go back in the pack, or stay in the tent. And we move with climbing boots, crampons, ropes, the usual.

I must urge you to wear traction on your feet if the consequence of a fall is so high.

I assume your petzl sarken crampons are fully automatic or semi automatic for your mountain boots.

It is possible to swap the heel and toe baskets from auto to universal for a very minimal weight penalty so that you can have them on your hiking shoes during ABC and swap back to the parts you want for the technical boots later on the climb. These parts are lighter and cheaper than carrying or purchasing a second axe if it is not really needed.

If you need the second axe anyway I would still recommend this.

as you said if the consequences of a fall are so high you should prevent the fall in the first place as best as possible by having appropriate footwear first of all.

Secondly, falling on ice does not provide a good chance of being able to self arrest at all with axe or not.

Self arrest is really only possible on snow. Not ice.

That said, to answer your question about the axe, the Sum’tec is a great all around axe but if the terrain you’re on is mostly low angle the length will be somewhat short. The 59cm Summit would be better if the terrain is mostly not steep. If the terrain is in fact quite flat overall an even longer axe would also be good unless it would be in the way on more technical sections of the climb later when you might be using both axes together.

If you plan to need both axes simultaneously I would lean for a 59cm summit or shorter or just get the Sum’tec as it is a better climbing tool.

Lastly if a less technical axe (like the petzl summit) is what you want I would consider the Black Diamond Raven or Raven Pro. The way the head shape is attached to the shaft is designed narrow to fit between your fingers better. I find it more comfortable for long sections of carrying in hand.

Best of luck in your adventures :)

As said above you are not going to self arrest on ice. So what axe is used is largely moot. If the terrain is such that a slip means going into the abyss then you want to be wearing crampons. I have an old pair of strap on hinge crampons that I have used on lightweight hiking shoes for hard glacier approaches to a technical alpine rock climb. I took those and no ice axe.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Prevent the slip! Ice ax arrests are not an assured form of mitigation, and less so as the surface becomes harder or steeper. It sounds like crampons, and good balance are your best bet.

In addition to good earlier suggestions, consider substituting a long shaft ice axe for one or both trekking poles.

Alex Fletcher wrote:

I assume your petzl sarken crampons are fully automatic or semi automatic for your mountain boots.

It is possible to swap the heel and toe baskets from auto to universal for a very minimal weight penalty so that you can have them on your hiking shoes during ABC and swap back to the parts you want for the technical boots later on the climb. These parts are lighter and cheaper than carrying or purchasing a second axe if it is not really needed.

This is gold! I had no idea this was even possible. It could potentially be a game-changer, if I can put on the usual (semi/fully automatic) crampons on hiking boots! Thank you! I assume you mean parts like the flexible heel bails and flexible toe bails.

That said, to answer your question about the axe, the Sum’tec is a great all around axe but if the terrain you’re on is mostly low angle the length will be somewhat short. The 59cm Summit would be better if the terrain is mostly not steep. If the terrain is in fact quite flat overall an even longer axe would also be good unless it would be in the way on more technical sections of the climb later when you might be using both axes together.

If you plan to need both axes simultaneously I would lean for a 59cm summit or shorter or just get the Sum’tec as it is a better climbing tool.

The image below is clipped from a video of a very easy section of the approach march. The idea is that you need to traverse along the side of the hill. Almost all trails will encounter some ice patches. In the "tricky" sections which I wrote about, the idea is the same, the trail you tread upon is mostly flat, but that flat path is laid into a very steep hill side, sometimes with a sharp drop off right next to the trail. I don't have videos of these hard sections because we were busy trying to cross safely.

Now If its just a few meters of ice, it is cumbersome to stop, put on the crampons, cross the ice, and then take off and repack the crampons. But the expose is still high for those few meters. This is where I believe the ice ax comes into the picture to give better support. If it is a larger ice patch, ofc, the universal crampons are super.

So, without the universal crampons, I would have had to go for a much longer axe - to use on both narrow and large ice patches.

With the universal crampons for the larger ice patches, I can carry a shorter and more "useful" ax - like the shorter Summit or the SumTec. For the narrow ice patches, where its too tedious to bring out even these crampons, just hunch over a bit and make do with the shorter ice ax.

Thank you! Very helpful!

Edit - Okay, I found an Insta post from the same route from 2021 (we went this year) - https://www.instagram.com/p/COr68jSgmKc

The "trail" in this clip is between the BC and ABC. Notice that glacier is still far away. If you slip here, you fall on soft/loose soil, so you won't go down a lot. Still very bothersome (maybe cuts and bruises), but not fatal (nor broken bones). Between ABC and C1, you have similar trails, but the terrain is more rocky and the glacier is much closer and there are random ice patches in the middle of the path and frozen streams coming from above. So if you slip and fall, there's a good chance you'll end up inside a glacial lake 200 meters below and puzzle future archaeologists.

^^This is the universal toe piece that will fit on any petzl crampon. ^^

^^This is the automatic toe piece that will fit on any petzl crampon.^^


^^This is the automatic heel piece that will fit on any petzl crampon.^^

^^This is the universal heel piece that will fit on any petzl crampon. ^^

Any of these pieces are interchangeable to make any petzl crampon into universal, semi automatic, or fully automatic crampons.

if you want to wear your petzl sarkens on your hiking boots you need the universal heel piece and the universal toe piece.

Universal pieces will also work for mountaineering boots but you can swap them for semi or fully automatic as you wish for the technical climbing with your mountaineering boots.

Hope this helps. 

Not sure why not mentioned previously, but I really like a BD whippet for that low angle glacier/frozen river/snow terrain.  A whippet with a quark will get you up WI 4- no problem in a pinch.    I agree though with others above that proper footwear/footgear (crampons)  is key to not needing to use any version of axe when on such terrain.     Gotta know instantly what to do with your feet though if you slip on ice with crampons on….cartwheels with sharp implements is no stunt to try.