Backed-Up bowline vs yosemite finish Bowline
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Was talking to a much more experienced a while back friend about knots and he was teaching me about bowlines. He showed me how to tie a bowline and told me always back them up with a fisherman's on the end cause the knot can slip under load. He also briefly mentioned that you can use a bowline as an alternative to an eight to tie into your harness(and that its his preferred knot cause it doesn't sinch down and is easier to untie after a whip). I looked this up recently and saw people say to tie a "Yosemite finish bowline" if you use it as a belay knot to prevent slipping. Would backing up a normally tied bowline be acceptable for use as a belay knot or would it be better/safer to use a Yosemite finish? |
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I believe the answer to your question is yes, but there are other advantages to using a locked bowline. Besides being neater and faster to tie, locked bowlines also have more rope diameters inside the nipping loop, which theoretically increases the strength. I personally like using Lee's Yosemite Bowline. |
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Get your rope and tie in with a basic bowline backed up with that overhand. Now grab the rope and shake it. Bop it. twist it. Mess about. See what has to happen in order for you to not trust your life to it. Now try another bowline. I highly recommend more than a basic bowline backed up. I like a water bowline or scotts locked bowline, both with an overhand back up. |
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People who tie in with weird, niche designer knots are on their own when it comes to knot checks. The singular most important advantage of the Fig 8 is that most competent partners can knot check it with a glance. |
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Look up the Scott's locked bowline. It's the ultimate bowline. |
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The professional association of climbing instructors in Australia has done extensive analysis on bowline knots. Their PDFs are available at the link below. Page 40 in the "knots" PDF is where they suggest the end bound single bowline, Lee's Link Bowline, and Scott's Bowline as inherently stable knots that don't require a backup i.e. just as good as a figure 8 for tying in. They have a whole separate PDF on bowline types analysis. They don't recommend a Yosemite finish. I've been using the EBSB, but I'm considering switching to the Scott's Bowline. It might be worth noting that there are two ways to tie the Scott's and they prefer one to the other. The PDFs require a password but it's listed in the file description. |
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Sparkington TheThird wrote: Agree with the comment above. I personally use an end bound bowline when I use a bowline to tie into the rope. Almost everyone I know who ties in with a bowline uses a different variation or finish to make it safe and redundant. I know of at least 12 variations that make the bowline safe and I don’t consider a backup knot a safe way to finish one. Bowlines have several advantages but the downsides are bowlines are not redundant by themselves and there are many ways to finish them to make them safe. Due to the many ways to tie a safe one they become difficult to teach and check. |
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I'm a fan of the Lee's Locked Bowline. I really like the tail going back into the harness loops and totally out of the way. |
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Single bowline, yosemite finish for thousands of routes....never had a problem |
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Jake Hohner wrote: BITD and FWIW, i worked in industrial rope access. the bowline w/ Yosemite finish was the go to for many of us. easy to tie and untie even after being weighted. |
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Eric Craig wrote: Eric, Ron Olevsky has a great story about coming up with the figure 8 with a “Yosemite finish” to deal with his mule, Archie: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/640557/RIP-Archie-inspiration-for-our-knot |
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Just to pile on to the people saying not to tie in with a standard bowline backed up with a double fishermans knot, I've climbed with that twice now and the second time the fishermans knot came completely untied.. while I was in the middle of leading the hardest gear protected climb I've ever lead. I at least will never climb with a standard bowline again after that. |
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if you are taking repeated whips and the argument is for faster or easier untying, are you like on the clock to immediately tie in for another route? what's the hurry? just curious. i'm guessing people just like what they like and that's that but yeah, i will have no clue how to check any of these variants as someone upthread mentioned. i love that people are interested in this stuff even if i personally think its silly at best and dangerous at worst. good luck to all! |
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ilya f wrote: Prying a truly welded fig8 loose expends effort that I would rather save for my next burn. Love, The Rewoven Bowline Gang |
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I use a follow through bowline. It was taught to me by a coach for the German sport climbing team. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. German is being particularly OCD. |
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Here we go again, the argument we shouldn’t do something that would work better because people would have to learn something new. IE vertical spaced bolt anchors, rams horns etc. I have never seen half of a double fisherman’s knot loosen. As a backup, rappel knot or even as a standalone scaffolding hitch. |
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The only reason I’m not twice as good as I should be is because I need to throttle back so idiots can double check me. Story of my life, and I’m sticking to it. |
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competition / brotherhood knot anyone? |
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Mr Rogers wrote: I've tried it in the gym and it seems to perform as advertised. I was met with looks of skepticism and disgust by my peers however. I haven't adopted it, I'm inclined to see if it comes into common use first. I typically tie in with a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, I add the finish to get the tail out of the way - not because I'm worried about the knot coming untied. I absolutely hate it when I reach down to clip and accidently grab the tail! When faced with a soft and fuzzy gym rope and looking to take repeated falls I'll tie in with a bowline, usually a double bowline with some kind of back-up knot on the tail. |
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ilya f wrote: Gold standard MP post. |
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Mr Rogers wrote: I used this for a while. My experience was that it was often not that easy to untie after a fall. I did like the tail going back towards the harness and the fitness for ring loading which is why I like the Lee's Locked Bowline so much. |