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Backed-Up bowline vs yosemite finish Bowline

Original Post
Jake Hohner · · Philadelphia, Pa · Joined Mar 2023 · Points: 0

Was talking to a much more experienced a while back friend about knots and he was teaching me about bowlines. He showed me how to tie a bowline and told me always back them up with a fisherman's  on the end cause the knot can slip under load. He also briefly mentioned that you can use a bowline as an alternative to an eight to tie into your harness(and that its his preferred knot cause it doesn't sinch down and is easier to untie after a whip). I looked this up recently and saw people say to tie a "Yosemite finish bowline" if you use it as a belay knot to prevent slipping. Would backing up a normally tied bowline be acceptable for use as a belay knot or would it be better/safer to use a Yosemite finish?

Nick Sheldon · · daks · Joined Mar 2022 · Points: 35

I believe the answer to your question is yes, but there are other advantages to using a locked bowline. Besides being neater and faster to tie, locked bowlines also have more rope diameters inside the nipping loop, which theoretically increases the strength. I personally like using Lee's Yosemite Bowline.

Orion Belt · · New Jersey · Joined Oct 2022 · Points: 76

Get your rope and tie in with a basic bowline backed up with that overhand. Now grab the rope and shake it. Bop it. twist it. Mess about. See what has to happen in order for you to not  trust your life to it.  Now try another bowline. 

I highly recommend more than a basic bowline backed up. I like a water bowline or scotts locked bowline, both with an overhand back up. 

Cherokee Nunes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 0

People who tie in with weird, niche designer knots are on their own when it comes to knot checks.

The singular most important advantage of the Fig 8 is that most competent partners can knot check it with a glance. 

Ricky Harline · · Angel's Camp, CA · Joined Nov 2016 · Points: 147

Look up the Scott's locked bowline. It's the ultimate bowline. 

Sparkington TheThird · · Kansas City · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 5

The professional association of climbing instructors in Australia has done extensive analysis on bowline knots. Their PDFs are available at the link below. Page 40 in the "knots" PDF is where they suggest the end bound single bowline, Lee's Link Bowline, and Scott's Bowline as inherently stable knots that don't require a backup i.e. just as good as a figure 8 for tying in.

They have a whole separate PDF on bowline types analysis. They don't recommend a Yosemite finish.

I've been using the EBSB, but I'm considering switching to the Scott's Bowline. It might be worth noting that there are two ways to tie the Scott's and they prefer one to the other.

Paci PDFs on knots

The PDFs require a password but it's listed in the file description.

Cam Brown · · Portland · Joined May 2015 · Points: 150
Sparkington TheThird wrote:

The professional association of climbing instructors in Australia has done extensive analysis on bowline knots. Their PDFs are available at the link below. Page 40 in the "knots" PDF is where they suggest the end bound single bowline, Lee's Link Bowline, and Scott's Bowline as inherently stable knots that don't require a backup i.e. just as good as a figure 8 for tying in.

They have a whole separate PDF on bowline types analysis. They don't recommend a Yosemite finish.

I've been using the EBSB, but I'm considering switching to the Scott's Bowline. It might be worth noting that there are two ways to tie the Scott's and they prefer one to the other.

Paci PDFs on knots

The PDFs require a password but it's listed in the file description.

Agree with the comment above. I personally use an end bound bowline when I use a bowline to tie into the rope. Almost everyone I know who ties in with a bowline uses a different variation or finish to make it safe and redundant. I know of at least 12 variations that make the bowline safe and I don’t consider a backup knot a safe way to finish one.

Bowlines have several advantages but the downsides are bowlines are not redundant by themselves and there are many ways to finish them to make them safe. Due to the many ways to tie a safe one they become difficult to teach and check. 

Victor Creazzi · · Lafayette CO · Joined Nov 2022 · Points: 0

 I'm a fan of the Lee's Locked Bowline. I really like  the tail going back into the harness  loops and totally out of the way.

David Miles · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2018 · Points: 191

Single bowline, yosemite finish for thousands of routes....never had a problem 

jackscoldsweat · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 15
Jake Hohner wrote:

.......Would backing up a normally tied bowline be acceptable for use as a belay knot or would it be better/safer to use a Yosemite finish?

BITD and FWIW, i worked in industrial rope access. the bowline w/ Yosemite finish was the go to for many of us. easy to tie and untie even after being weighted.

i'm a taller/heavier climber and use the double bowline w/ Yosemite finish if working a hard single pitch route w/ repeated falls (sport or gym). Multipitch i use a figure eight as I don't anticipate repeated falls.

jcs

Terry E · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 43
Eric Craig wrote:

To each their own........

I don't know the actual origin of the "bowline with Yosemite finish", which is how it was referred to at the Yosemite Mountaineering School. Around 1980 YMS adopted the figure 8 since the rest of the western American climbing world was using it. A properly tied and dressed "Yosemite Bowline " is very secure, easy to untie after weighting, and easy to identify (check). And somewhat more compact than a figure 8. In my opinion, the more modern "locked " variations are not very tidy, and therefore lacking in the virtues I listed, except the locked versions are very secure. But if you like em, have at it.

Eric, Ron Olevsky has a great story about coming up with the figure 8 with a “Yosemite finish” to deal with his mule, Archie:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/640557/RIP-Archie-inspiration-for-our-knot

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121606646/why-are-climbing-guides-so-expensive?page=6#ForumMessage-121621755

Elaine Gilstrom · · SF Bay Area, CA · Joined May 2019 · Points: 75

Just to pile on to the people saying not to tie in with a standard bowline backed up with a double fishermans knot, I've climbed with that twice now and the second time the fishermans knot came completely untied.. while I was in the middle of leading the hardest gear protected climb I've ever lead. I at least will never climb with a standard bowline again after that.

ilya f · · santa rosa, california · Joined Jan 2021 · Points: 0

if you are taking repeated whips and the argument is for faster or easier untying, are you like on the clock to immediately tie in for another route? what's the hurry? just curious. i'm guessing people just like what they like and that's that but yeah, i will have no clue how to check any of these variants as someone upthread mentioned. i love that people are interested in this stuff even if i personally think its silly at best and dangerous at worst. good luck to all!

F r i t z · · (Currently on hiatus, new b… · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 1,155
ilya f wrote:

if you are taking repeated whips and the argument is for faster or easier untying, are you like on the clock to immediately tie in for another route? what's the hurry? just curious. 

Prying a truly welded fig8 loose expends effort that I would rather save for my next burn. 

Love,

The Rewoven Bowline Gang

june m · · elmore, vt · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 116

I use a follow through bowline. It was taught to me by a coach for the German sport climbing team. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. German is being particularly OCD.

Ackley The Improved · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2020 · Points: 0

Here we go again, the argument we shouldn’t do something that would work better because people would have to learn something new. IE vertical spaced bolt anchors, rams horns etc.

I have never seen half of a double fisherman’s knot loosen. As a backup, rappel knot or even as a standalone scaffolding hitch.

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 25

The only reason I’m not twice as good as I should be is because I need to throttle back so idiots can double check me.  Story of my life, and I’m sticking to it. 

Mr Rogers · · Pollock Pines and Bay area CA · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 72
David House · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 468
Mr Rogers wrote:

competition / brotherhood knot anyone?

I've tried it in the gym and it seems to perform as advertised. I was met with looks of skepticism and disgust by my peers however. I haven't adopted it, I'm inclined to see if it comes into common use first. 

I typically tie in with a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, I add the finish to get the tail out of the way - not because I'm worried about the knot coming untied. I absolutely hate it when I reach down to clip and accidently grab the tail!

When faced with a soft and fuzzy gym rope and looking to take repeated falls I'll tie in with a bowline, usually a double bowline with some kind of back-up knot on the tail.

WF WF51 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 0
ilya f wrote:

if you are taking repeated whips and the argument is for faster or easier untying, are you like on the clock to immediately tie in for another route? what's the hurry? just curious. i'm guessing people just like what they like and that's that but yeah, i will have no clue how to check any of these variants as someone upthread mentioned. i love that people are interested in this stuff even if i personally think its silly at best and dangerous at worst. good luck to all!

Gold standard MP post.  

Victor Creazzi · · Lafayette CO · Joined Nov 2022 · Points: 0
Mr Rogers wrote:

competition / brotherhood knot anyone?

I used this for a while. My experience was that it was often not that easy to untie after a fall. I did like the tail going back towards the harness and the fitness for ring loading which is why I like the Lee's Locked Bowline so much.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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