Metolius ultralight cams?? what's your take?

Hi all, looking for opinions on the metolius ultralight.

I started building my rack last summer and bought size 0-5 of the metolius ultralight mastercams. I really like the look, the action, and the weight, but I seem to be the only one buying these... Plus I have heard they are easy to get stuck, and have already lost one due to it walking deep into a crack on outer space in leavenworth.. bless my climbing partner for the sweat and tears trying to release it.

I would like to try and keep my cams consistent across my rack, but am wondering if getting a full double rack of these is a mistake? I mostly climb in squamish and it seems everyone has a double rack of BDs.. It seems BDs and alien cams are easier to find used, and I can understand the benefit of having a similar rack to other's when sharing gear. 

Each brand comes with its own pros and cons, and I generally prefer having one rack of one brand and one of another to get different advantages. 

Metolius does get stuck more in my experience and  requires more attentive placements. You get two more cams in a rack from .3-3 for the same weight which is a huge advantage.

Totems are... Well totems. Use em if you got em. 

Dragons are amazing but polarizing because no thumb loops and you don't want to aid on them. But once you get used to built in extendy slings you never want to go back. They save time and gear. 

Friends don't have quite as good extendy slings as Dragons but they're like 70% of the way there while having thumb loops which makes them an extremely easy choice. 

BD hasn't innovated significantly in ages and I wouldn't choose them other than in sizes 4 and up where their trigger keepers are seriously badass. 

Having a rack which compliments another in size is also really nice. IE a rack of Dragons and BD won't compliment each other well because they're functionally identical sizing, but Metolius + BD or Dragons would, and BD/Dragons + Friends does to a lesser degree as Friends are slightly bigger. 

Personally I would do a rack of Metolius and then get a rack of Totems, Dragons, or Friends depending on your needs and preferences. 

I've been climbing with a rack of metolius ultralights from 1-6 and a rack of bd z/c4s. I think that they compliment each other nicely and I actually prefer this to a double rack of either brand. I wouldn't get a metolius above their #6 (bd #1). Having double axles becomes more important in the larger sizes, but you can decide where to draw that line. If your partner is only familiar with bds then have them contribute a rack of bds and leave the metolius cams at home. You'll be used to both.

I've got metolius ultralights from #1 to #8, and an older set of C4s from .1 to 4. I really, really, really like the metolius cams, especially in the smaller sizes. I agree that the larger ones are less useful than the C4s, and for some reason they do tend to walk, but the blue metolius #1 is the most useful cam I have in my arsenal out here in NC, and it gets placed in just about every pitch I've ever climbed with it on my harness. I can't say the same for the smaller BD cams. I do like having both to grab from though, which seems to be the consensus, especially in places where you're not just climbing splitter cracks constantly. Plus, they're still a relatively small company, and the quality control kicks the dog shit out of black diamond these days.  

Nick Sheldon wrote:

I've been climbing with a rack of metolius ultralights from 1-6 and a rack of bd z/c4s. I think that they compliment each other nicely and I actually prefer this to a double rack of either brand. I wouldn't get a metolius above their #6 (bd #1). Having double axles becomes more important in the larger sizes, but you can decide where to draw that line. If your partner is only familiar with bds then have them contribute a rack of bds and leave the metolius cams at home. You'll be used to both.

Im in the same boat- followed recommendations of more experienced trad climbers when i built a double rack of mastercam to orange (#2?), and then c4 from purple 0.5 on up.  I dont find it disorienting if you have a single cutover point.

you should also factor in the details around head size for small placements, and whether or not stem flexibility is a factor in your area.

Ricky Harline wrote:

BD hasn't innovated significantly in ages and I wouldn't choose them other than in sizes 4 and up where their trigger keepers are seriously badass. 

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it? C4s are perfect and the ULs are even better. Extendy slings are a total gimmick and an attempt by the other brands to differentiate themselves from the gold standard C4. Fingers and down there are several good options but that’s crazy to say that the trigger keeper cams are the only BDs worthwhile.

Michael Vaill wrote:

 Extendy slings are a total gimmick and an attempt by the other brands to differentiate themselves from the gold standard C4. 

Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Much of the time when I extend my Dragons or my friend's Friends it's just using the built in sling. It means you can take less draws, which is a huge deal for long approach climbs or long pitches. Also, it's faster once you get used to it. 

I have converted multiple friends to extendy slings by simply using my Dragons on multis. IMO other than Totems which are the clear champion of the cam world for simply not coming out when other cams would, the Dragons and Friends are the best, most versatile, most useful cams on the market. 

Have you used extendy slings much? Once you get fast at extending them you will never want to go back. They're a total game changer and not at all a gimmick. Most people I climb with vastly prefer extendy sling cams and the only reason we would take other cams is either for the numbers advantage from Metolius for long approaches like alpine climbing or Totems for funky/flaring cracks and pin scars. 

You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is wrong =p

Other than just criticizing Ricky I’ll offer something helpful for the OP: don’t get doubles in the metolius cams. Years from now when you have many sets of cams and many partners with many sets of cams you’ll probably still use the smaller metolius (up to yellow or so) but it’s not likely you’ll be wanting more than 1ea.

If you get some totems or Z4s up to purple or green and C4s above that you can climb anything in Squamish. Learn how to place nuts especially #4-#8 HBs/offsets which are dope in pinscars and granite in general. If you’re psyched on aliens the small ones are nice. Don’t rush out to buy though! If you climb all summer in Squamish with your partners racks you’ll probably know what you want by next year.

Always bring a nut tool even if you don’t bring nuts and don’t be scared to rap a pitch to work together with your partner on a stuck cam. If you don’t get it out you’ll learn a lot trying. Eventually you’ll learn how to deal with those stubborn pieces and not curse your partner for their “too bomber” placements!

Ricky Harline wrote:

Have you used extendy slings much? Once you get fast at extending them you will never want to go back. They're a total game changer and not at all a gimmick. Most people I climb with vastly prefer extendy sling cams and the only reason we would take other cams is either for the numbers advantage from Metolius for long approaches like alpine climbing or Totems for funky/flaring cracks and pin scars. 

You're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is wrong =p

I’ve used them quite a bit. The first few times I tried them I thought it was such a cool feature but after much more experience I’ve realized it’s a classic gimmick i.e. a solution looking for a problem. I’ve found that people who always use them have a habit of extending that damn sling even when it’s not necessary and it’s a few extra seconds when you place the cam and then again when you rerack the cam. In very wandery/alpine terrain the extendy sling isn’t long enough to substitute for a shoulder-length, and if you learn to take rope drag into consideration when placing gear you can often get away without extending every other piece like the extendy slings tempt you into doing. A couple UL QDs are great to have on your harness anyways for wires and fixed gear and if you really want a short extension slamming a draw on a cam isn't much slower than the extendy sling.

It’s a bit of a strawman to say it saves you weight because that small extension is needed so infrequently that you can probably find an extra draw on your harness for those specific placements without bringing any more draws than you needed for the route anyways. It’s about learning to manage the rack as you work your way up the pitch. For some reason this seems to me to be a dying art - many topos suggest all kinds of wild racks like 3-4ea of certain sizes or huge OW sized cams when 2ea fingers-hands, nuts, and an eye for creative placements is totally sufficient.

We can agree to disagree but I thought I’d explain why I have my opinion (and we know what they say about opinions).

I recently replaced my mastercam/c4 rack with a double mastercam rack and carry c4 #4 if I know I need it. No regrets I just like the mastercams better than the bd ymmv.

No thumb loop is a disadvantage for aid climbing. 

like others have said, love my mastercams. 

IMO don’t have your second rack be the same though. you’ll appreciate some DMM/BD/WC cams to compliment them.

Awesome, thank you all for your input!! I love the mastercams but wasnt sure if I was just being stubborn and falling in love with the first gear I ever bought..

I have one wild country cam in a size 3 and its good. Thanks for encouraging a varied rack and trying things out. I will at most get a single rack of these eventually, or at least 00-5, but wont get doubles unless I find I am really missing it! Not in a rush t load up on gear - my 5 cams and a couple sets of nuts have already gotten me pretty far.. 

I have the old Master Cams with the thumb loops.  Normally I rack 00, 0 and 1 (three smallest).

MCs are a good buy.  
Four lobes are nice. (Didn’t like the BD C3s).
Metolius make bomber gear.

Generally, I am happier plugging Totems, but carrying double totems never seemed the thing.

I don’t read about people loving the new micro cams more than MCs or the old Aliens, which don’t get discussed much anymore. 

Michael Vaill wrote:

I’ve used them quite a bit. The first few times I tried them I thought it was such a cool feature but after much more experience I’ve realized it’s a classic gimmick i.e. a solution looking for a problem. I’ve found that people who always use them have a habit of extending that damn sling even when it’s not necessary and it’s a few extra seconds when you place the cam and then again when you rerack the cam. In very wandery/alpine terrain the extendy sling isn’t long enough to substitute for a shoulder-length, and if you learn to take rope drag into consideration when placing gear you can often get away without extending every other piece like the extendy slings tempt you into doing. A couple UL QDs are great to have on your harness anyways for wires and fixed gear and if you really want a short extension slamming a draw on a cam isn't much slower than the extendy sling.

It’s a bit of a strawman to say it saves you weight because that small extension is needed so infrequently that you can probably find an extra draw on your harness for those specific placements without bringing any more draws than you needed for the route anyways. It’s about learning to manage the rack as you work your way up the pitch. For some reason this seems to me to be a dying art - many topos suggest all kinds of wild racks like 3-4ea of certain sizes or huge OW sized cams when 2ea fingers-hands, nuts, and an eye for creative placements is totally sufficient.

We can agree to disagree but I thought I’d explain why I have my opinion (and we know what they say about opinions).

That's a really interesting perspective and I appreciate the thoughtful and well reasoned reply. If you're going to extend every piece like that I would just rack them extended, that seems silly, but I do also think a lot of people over extend rather than learning what causes rope drag and just extending the necessary pieces. 

I agree ultralight quickdraws are a great solution if you don't want or have extendy slings. And I also agree that built in extendy slings aren't a replacement for an alpine draw, if it needs full extension it needs full extension. 

Could be a difference in the grades we climb maybe? As a mostly 5.9 and under climber I climb a lot of wandery shit, and often I only need a little extension. Perhaps when I one day leave punterdom (it will happen one day goddammit) I will find myself agreeing with you. Time will tell. 

As a fellow Tal (wtf?) I’ll co-sign everything Michael says (hey Mike!) except the extendable slings thing. In the front range, the land of a ton of small bulges and roofs, the extendable sling is sweet. It’s basically the same as throwing a draw on it but it’s lighter - sure it’s less versatile than actually having a draw - but it’s lighter, and I don’t feel the need to rack up for worst case situations every time I climb. I definitely don’t use it on every placement - to mike’s point, it’s extra motion for the climber and extra dangly for the follower until they’re at a hands free stance - but it’s come in really handy when I don’t need a full alpine extension and don’t want to burn a draw that I might use on a nut or tricam. An example I’m thinking of is a placement by a block/under a small roof where an unextended placement would cause a sharp bend or really rub the edge, but the short extension keeps it clean. I’ve found this happening often around here.

I wouldn’t buy WC friends explicitly because of the extendable sling. I actually don’t recommend anyone buy friends in any sizes are than #1-3. They’re so stiff that you kind of need to extend them as they go smaller just so they don’t want take a little hot girl walk. But I love them in hand sizes, and they fill the gaps in the BD sizes if you go with those.

As for mastercams - I like them. They don’t make my “ideal rack” list, but they’re certainly not worth selling and upgrading if you already have some. Just get another brand’s offering for your doubles