NYT: For Female Climbers, Dangers Go Beyond Avalanches and Storms

djkyote wrote:

Woman posts article re SA

A page of manslaining ensues

Classic.

Where?

Jared E wrote:

Where?

Some kid explaining that since the accused mountain guide was formerly a super-cool badass gurkha/special ops soldier, and since one of the accusers was formerly Miss Finland, that it was merely a "clash of cultures" and that the accusations of sexual harassment therefore have no merit. 

Oorah.

"NYT: For Female Climbers, Dangers Go Beyond Avalanches and Storms"  I sure hope this is not "news" to anyone. One would have to be ignorant as hell to think of this as a discoverable new trend. Rape and its associated crimes has always affected the female sex way more than the male sex. For that reason, being a female in any country, on any continent, has always carried more inherent risk of a violent crime being perpetrated against them. It was that way during the Mongolian Empire and it is still true today. The mountaineering community is so small, perhaps that gave the times a more salacious angle in which to compose an article about someone who had to thwart off unwanted sexual advances on the mountain. 

The reality is that a detailed article about lower to middle income women working in the outdoor industry, whether it be skiing, paddling or climbing, etc, would have offered much more insight in the trials and tribulations of having to deal with sexual predation and its supposedly surprising(?) existence in outdoor sports. Covering socialites paying $100K to be guided up Everest I highly doubt exacts the same empathy as a more comprehensive study of the cost and risk of being a female in a male dominated industry.  Sure the story is more titillating if it involves the real housewives of Everest, but it definitely lacks depth and therefore does not bring much awareness to the 10's of thousands of women who actually work for a living in the outdoor sports industry.

Typical Everest hype bs. Miss Universe pageant contestant. Model. "Professional"(?) Mountaineer. Father was involved in the Formula One business. Grew up with a leopard cup. Featured in Dancing with the Stars and the Amazing Race series. Married and divorced from a professional Hocky player. No, she does not deserve to be sexually harassed by her guide on Everest. But it would be nice if the Times could focus on the women having to struggle with far less resources and support in dealing with actual sexual violence. If they want to pick the outdoor sports industry, I for one would think that could be a great article because on paddling trips for example, female guides can become sort of trapped by clients of which they know nothing about and have to negotiate the situation carefully if they suspect sexual predatory behavior.  The lessons these "real" female professionals have to share could be much more valuable than anything learned from being a client on Everest.  

Much more journalism would be required. Way more money and research by an investigative rag would be required. But a Taibbi type article exposing the pitfalls of the industry regarding this issue could actually lead to helping those with much less resources and publicists at their disposal. Not to mention create a bit more empathy and exposure. Krakauer made this effort with his Missoula book.  

This NYT article is just plain lazy and shallow and most importantly, ineffective.

From Nim’s instagram stories: 

Interesting how another prominent climber aggressively denied all allegations against sexual misconduct and blamed it on malice, was found guilty and got sentenced to life in prison.

I believe the women. 

Dow Williams wrote:

"This NYT article is just plain lazy and shallow and most importantly, ineffective.

ANY article, regardless of if it features prominent individuals or not, that brings light to sexual assault in the outdoor industry (or any industry) is NOT ineffective.

Sexual harassment is too often swept under the rug, bring it to light. ALL OF IT. 

Dow Williams wrote:

"NYT: For Female Climbers, Dangers Go Beyond Avalanches and Storms"  I sure hope this is not "news" to anyone.

I think you missed the point? The article is newsworthy not because of who the victims are but because of who the perpetrator is.  When a high level sponsored athlete who’s likely been a hero to many turns out to be a sexual predator, it’s a big deal. 

Wow, I’m sure the New York Times legal team is shaking in their boots after that all-caps Insta post.

Dow Williams wrote:

Much more journalism would be required. Way more money and research by an investigative rag would be required. But a Taibbi type article exposing the pitfalls of the industry 

This NYT article is just plain lazy and shallow and most importantly, ineffective.

LOL, Dow, what a joke. Taibbi is the LAST person who is going to write an article about men in positions of power using that power to gain sexual advantage over women. You can do your own research why.

If you think the NYT shouldn't have covered THIS story because there are other stories that aren't being covered, maybe you should get to work covering those other stories?

Ry C wrote:

From Nim’s instagram stories: 

Interesting how another prominent climber aggressively denied all allegations against sexual misconduct and blamed it on malice, was found guilty and got sentenced to life in prison.

I believe the women. 

It's always a red-flag when any individual refers to themself in the 3rd person...

I can think of a certain other noteworthy adjudicated rapist who does that a lot. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

It's always a red-flag when any individual refers to themself in the 3rd person...

I can think of a certain other noteworthy adjudicated rapist who does that a lot. 

Many celebrities and professional athletes pay people to run their social media accounts. There’s almost zero chance that Nims wrote that statement himself.

Cron wrote:

Many celebrities and professional athletes pay people to run their social media accounts. There’s almost zero chance that Nims wrote that statement himself.

Almost 100% chance that he approved it... 

Andrew Rice wrote:

LOL, Dow, what a joke. Taibbi is the LAST person who is going to write an article about men in positions of power using that power to gain sexual advantage over women. You can do your own research why.

If you think the NYT shouldn't have covered THIS story because there are other stories that aren't being covered, maybe you should get to work covering those other stories?

Matt's (Taibbi) career appears stronger than ever.  Maybe your using a different browser than Google?  Or maybe cancel culture actually boost careers now days?  He is one of the last great investigative reporters since diving into facts and details has been widely replaced with lazy speculation.  As is the example of this shallow NYT piece which cannot even fact check what it means to be a "professional mountaineer" much less bother to give two sides of the story of a non adjudicated accusation.  Folks like you do a great disservice to actual victims of a character like Charles Barrett who is serving life in prison for his crimes by trying to compare him to a guy who has not even been charged with a crime to date, nor based on what I have read, will be.

Send me your address.  I believe you are in desperate need to read Bill Maher's latest book, "What This Comedian Said Will Shock You"

Dow Williams wrote:

This guy is the guy who, when he hears about a sexual assault allegation, asks, “Well, what was she wearing?”

Ry C wrote:

This guy is the guy who, when he hears about a sexual assault allegation, asks, “Well, what was she wearing?”

Have you migrated from elementary school antics yet???  Nothing better than that?

Dow Williams wrote:

Have you migrated from elementary school antics yet???  Nothing better than that?

I match the intelligence level of the person I’m replying to so that they can understand me. Sorry, I guess I’m still missing my mark with you. 

Ry C wrote:

I match the intelligence level of the person I’m replying to so that they can understand me. Sorry. 

Allow me to repost my original dialogue.  Where would you draw the conclusion that I have an issue with how any particular women dressed?  I am curious.  Don't waste time thinking about it if it is over your head.  You will just get more frustrated.

"NYT: For Female Climbers, Dangers Go Beyond Avalanches and Storms"  I sure hope this is not "news" to anyone. One would have to be ignorant as hell to think of this as a discoverable new trend. Rape and its associated crimes has always affected the female sex way more than the male sex. For that reason, being a female in any country, on any continent, has always carried more inherent risk of a violent crime being perpetrated against them. It was that way during the Mongolian Empire and it is still true today. The mountaineering community is so small, perhaps that gave the times a more salacious angle in which to compose an article about someone who had to thwart off unwanted sexual advances on the mountain. 

The reality is that a detailed article about lower to middle income women working in the outdoor industry, whether it be skiing, paddling or climbing, etc, would have offered much more insight in the trials and tribulations of having to deal with sexual predation and its supposedly surprising(?) existence in outdoor sports. Covering socialites paying $100K to be guided up Everest I highly doubt exacts the same empathy as a more comprehensive study of the cost and risk of being a female in a male dominated industry.  Sure the story is more titillating if it involves the real housewives of Everest, but it definitely lacks depth and therefore does not bring much awareness to the 10's of thousands of women who actually work for a living in the outdoor sports industry.

Typical Everest hype bs. Miss Universe pageant contestant. Model. "Professional"(?) Mountaineer. Father was involved in the Formula One business. Grew up with a leopard cup. Featured in Dancing with the Stars and the Amazing Race series. Married and divorced from a professional Hocky player. No, she does not deserve to be sexually harassed by her guide on Everest. But it would be nice if the Times could focus on the women having to struggle with far less resources and support in dealing with actual sexual violence. If they want to pick the outdoor sports industry, I for one would think that could be a great article because on paddling trips for example, female guides can become sort of trapped by clients of which they know nothing about and have to negotiate the situation carefully if they suspect sexual predatory behavior.  The lessons these "real" female professionals have to share could be much more valuable than anything learned from being a client on Everest.  

Much more journalism would be required. Way more money and research by an investigative rag would be required. But a Taibbi type article exposing the pitfalls of the industry regarding this issue could actually lead to helping those with much less resources and publicists at their disposal. Not to mention create a bit more empathy and exposure. Krakauer made this effort with his Missoula book.  

This NYT article is just plain lazy and shallow and most importantly, ineffective.

When a high level sponsored athlete who’s likely been a hero to many

I hope you see the problem with this part, too. The whole "my favorite hero" bullshit is just bullshit. The producers who helped make the man famous should own their part too, it was a giant commercial.

Dow Williams wrote:

Allow me to repost my original dialogue.  Where would you draw the conclusion that I have an issue with how any particular women dressed?  I am curious.  Don't waste time thinking about it if it is over your head.  You will just get more frustrated.

Dow- reading your longer post it seems like your position is "this NYT article is important and valid, but there are more vulnerable women/people who would benefit more from having the journalistic clout of the NYT shining a light on their struggles."

Correct me if that's wrong.  If that's the case, I think everyone in this thread (now that Nick left) is pretty much on the same page but the internet has us snapping at each other on account of subtle differences of opinion or simple miscommunication.

Any power imbalance in society is prone to problematic behavior.  In the office.  In education.  In the home.  In the mountains.  We -men especially- should be supportive of anything that shines a brighter light on this issue and the fact that it's present in essentially every facet of modern life.  And I agree with you Dow, that journalists and society at large should be looking for ways to give additional support to especially vulnerable people.  

That premise is the foundation of the BLM movement- that some people are negatively affected more than others and often the same people have fewer resources to deal with those awful effects.  And at the same time it can be true that reporting which centers around "privileged" victims is important and valid and news-worthy.  

Especially when we consider that abusers, rapists often hone their behavior over years and multiple victims of varying degrees and that "privileged victim" may well be the first with the resources to risk coming forward. The tip of the iceberg, the tip of the spear that fights back.

Dow Williams wrote:

Matt's (Taibbi) career appears stronger than ever.  Maybe your using a different browser than Google?  Or maybe cancel culture actually boost careers now days?  He is one of the last great investigative reporters since diving into facts and details has been widely replaced with lazy speculation.  As is the example of this shallow NYT piece which cannot even fact check what it means to be a "professional mountaineer" much less bother to give two sides of the story of a non adjudicated accusation.  Folks like you do a great disservice to actual victims of a character like Charles Barrett who is serving life in prison for his crimes by trying to compare him to a guy who has not even been charged with a crime to date, nor based on what I have read, will be.

Send me your address.  I believe you are in desperate need to read Bill Maher's latest book, "What This Comedian Said Will Shock You"

Taibbi, the "investigative reporter" who uncritically published cherry picked emails and internal documents  given to him by Elon Musk purporting to show something that it turns out they didn't. Wow, he's a real muckraker. He also has his own history of being accused of sexually harassing women. I don't know if that's true or not but it certainly would color his objectivity on the topic either way. 

If Bill Maher and Matt Taibbi are your great beacon of journalistic ethics and practices, that says a lot. 

Fact check: I never compared Nims to Barrett. The NYT did mention them both in this article, which is about hazards faced by women climbers in the outdoors. Seems accurate and fair to me. They didn't compare the two, directly.

Fact check: The NYT definitely sought and published the denials of Nims. For example, "A driver for Mr. Purja, Krishna Bahadur Tamang, said in a written statement provided by Mr. Purja’s lawyer that he took Mr. Purja to the Marriott that morning. He said Mr. Purja returned to the car “within 20 minutes.”

Dow Williams wrote:

Allow me to repost my original dialogue.  Where would you draw the conclusion that I have an issue with how any particular women dressed?  I am curious.  Don't waste time thinking about it if it is over your head.  You will just get more frustrated.

Maybe this is an issue with just me, but I believe it is universal. Often, internal thoughts translate differently than what is actually written by an individual. Uncontrollable to that, is how the public receives and reacts to that information. I greatly appreciate Andy Shoemaker giving you the benefit of the doubt where he states, "Dow- reading your longer post it seems like your position is "this NYT article is important and valid...."" But I kindly disagree. Additionally, it feels like you care more about the journalism itself, than the actual events  -- that kind of speaks a lot.

You've continually stated, several times, how you believe the article is " just plain lazy and shallow and most importantly, ineffective", and "Or maybe cancel culture actually boost careers now days?  He is one of the last great investigative reporters since diving into facts and details has been widely replaced with lazy speculation.  As is the example of this shallow NYT piece". Based on the words you've written, the abrasive and insulting tone of writing you've adopted, the names and careers of journalists you idolize, it's easily implied that you truly believe this article is useless, and you've double downed several times.

I want to emphasize my original reply to you: "ANY article, regardless of if it features prominent individuals or not, that brings light to sexual assault in the outdoor industry (or any industry) is NOT ineffective. Sexual harassment is too often swept under the rug, bring it to light. ALL OF IT. " I stand by that firmly. I also really want to emphasize Andy's very eloquently phrased reply: "Especially when we consider that abusers, rapists often hone their behavior over years and multiple victims of varying degrees and that "privileged victim" may well be the first with the resources to risk coming forward. The tip of the iceberg, the tip of the spear that fights back. " I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.

Now for my perspective:

I do agree, with my whole heart, where you state: "focus on the women having to struggle with far less resources and support in dealing with actual sexual violence. If they want to pick the outdoor sports industry..." Yes, women are sexually harassed constantly. I have personally changed my name on Mountain Project (Ry C is not my real name) and hidden my gender because a couple years ago, I agreed to meet up and climb with someone I met, here on the MP forums. When I changed my mind, he stalked me using my ticks, followed me around, sent me creepy messages, and harassed me for three months simply because I said I didn't want to climb with him anymore. That was terrifying, and you know what? No one cared about me. As you stated, "One would have to be ignorant as hell to think of this as a discoverable new trend. Rape and its associated crimes has always affected the female sex way more than the male sex. For that reason, being a female in any country, on any continent, has always carried more inherent risk of a violent crime being perpetrated against them. It was that way during the Mongolian Empire and it is still true today." These situations happen all the time and while highlighting these more "everyday" events is great and HAS been done: Article 1, Article 2, of MANY, do a google search...the thing is. People don't fucking care.

The issue is, because sexual harassment happens all the time, people grow complacent. "Ahh it's just part of being a women!" "Just bring bear spray" "Change your name", "Just ignore it...." "Boys will be boys."

I'm a poor dirtbag, I don't have the money or resources to get a lawyer, so when I see an article or a situation that grows to be big news, (ie: Charles Barrett, Nims Purja) with high profile clients, I actually get excited because finally, sexual harassment can be brought to public light -- big drama means bigger conversation and media. These victims have the money for a lawyer, have the resources and can take down rapists (ie: Barrett sentenced to life in prison). Any ounce of light shed upon this issue is a win and in this case, I'm grateful for any women who has the power, privilege, and above all, courage, to speak up.

As a woman who has endured sexual harassment from the climbing community in silence, I am thankful for this... "Typical Everest hype bs. Miss Universe pageant contestant. Model. "Professional"(?) Mountaineer." ...to build up courage and use her resources to speak up about a powerful and renowned "hero". I hope my reply will give you insight as to how others may view the situation. 

Lastly, I apologize for my snarky replies to you. Sometimes, when daggers are thrown at me, my friends, or things I feel passionately about, I throw daggers back. Excuses? Sure, but I apologize.