8 climbers stranded on Goat Wall

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Need deets.   How is that possible?

Darin Berdinka wrote:

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Need deets.   How is that possible?

I once had about as many friends epic and spend the night on Royal Arches. So I'm guessing it was something like that. My friends did have the decency to just suffer and not call SAR though. Builds character. 

Perhaps someone got injured? Find the two different strategies SAR used interesting, looking forward to hearing more details. 

Deputies said the cause of the incident was determined to be the stranded party’s lack of experience.  No mystery to uncover.  Services are free courtesy of Okanogan County taxpayers, so who cares?

This incident is why the US needs to adopt a policy that a rescue is no different than an ambulance ride - you get charged for it. That take responsibility for your actions.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

This incident is why the US needs to adopt a policy that a rescue is no different than an ambulance ride - you get charged for it. That take responsibility for your actions.

I've talked to SAR guys and they seem to all disagree with you. 

The national Mountain Rescue Association on charging for rescues:

...no one should ever be made to feel they must delay in notifying the proper authorities of a search or rescue incident out of fear of possible charges. We ask all outdoors groups and organizations to join us in sending this mountain safety education message.

I could see having a "negligence" clause where the grossly unprepared could get charged, but some states actually have this clause and have never implemented it. Presumably they are afraid that actually implementing it would lead to people being afraid to call SAR and potentially lead to worse outcomes. 

This is a really interesting story of such a rescue. All the SAR guys recognize that the cause of the rescue was lack of experience and skills, and they all seem to see that as a valid reason for the rescue. It's a great watch, I recommend it. 

Was this one party of 8 climbers or multiple parties that all got stuck at the same ledge? 

I disagree with you Allen. Not about taking personal responsibility, but about charging for rescues.

Helping out others in need is an extremely decent thing that humans should strive to always do for one another.

If rescue is charged for, then those in need are less likely to ask for the help that may save their life. They may wait longer in worse conditions making rescue more difficult later on. Even if they are already injured. 

SAR around Tahoe is partly funded by grateful victims who after rescue donate money and time. Some even become searchers. I would imagine this is the case many other places. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

I disagree with you Allen. Not about taking personal responsibility, but about charging for rescues.

Helping out others in need is an extremely decent thing that humans should strive to always do for one another.

If rescue is charged for, then those in need are less likely to ask for the help that may save their life. They may wait longer in worse conditions making rescue more difficult later on. Even if they are already injured. 

It is not about not helping. If someone goes to the ED (ER) they will not be denied care, but they will get a bill.

Further the last statement is often said, but I have yet to see any actual data to back that up. Further, that is not the case in Europe. In fact, the opposite. If one needs a rescue one can typically expect a bill. Taking personal responsibility is not relying on others to pay for your rescue. It does not matter if for climbing or mushroom picking or hunting.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

It is not about not helping. If someone goes to the ED (ER) they will not be denied care, but they will get a bill.

Hard disagree here as well. Lots of people who are minimally insured or self pay will avoid visiting the Doctor or health personnel related to costs of care. Then when their condition worsens they eventually seek care and must often visit the emergency department. This habit of rolling the dice to avoid costly care sometimes works but often times it results in more costly care and worse outcomes

Keeping SAR as a free service will prevent deaths.

Party of 8, climbing in pairs but all together. Climbed the first 7 pitches in 11 pitches so thought they were done. Couldn't see in the dark that they still had 600ft to climb so started "walking off" into awful off-route terrain. They called 911 and were coached over the phone by SAR to get back to a secure ledge they could shelter in place and wait for rescue. 6 were guided down. 2 wouldn't/couldn't rappel, so 1 was hauled up and 1 was guided up after many hours of warming. Significant snow storm didn't simplify things any.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Taking personal responsibility is not relying on others to pay for your rescue. It does not matter if for climbing or mushroom picking or hunting.

This logic ignores all of the ways climbers do not take responsibility for our actions. there are many people who are subjugated to forced labor and human trafficking to support u.s. in a privileged way of life. And lots of data on that. People that we should take personal responsibility to compensate for "rescuing" us with modern clothing and safe agricultural products. I've heard that going without food and clothing may build character. No one here fully lives up to that standard, it's fake, so unless youre a cast member on mountain men stfu. Do you really think the military personel that have died "rescuing" united states have been adequately compensated? Or is the chain of events that leads to you needing our services conviluted enough for you to say well thats not really my fault so... We all rely on each other constantly without expectation of payment. What your saying is a v thinly veiled excuse to use money to try and shame people for taking the actions they needed to save their own lives. Actions you would also take if you felt like your life was in danger. 

Allen Sanderson wrote:

It is not about not helping. If someone goes to the ED (ER) they will not be denied care, but they will get a bill.

Further the last statement is often said, but I have yet to see any actual data to back that up. Further, that is not the case in Europe. In fact, the opposite. If one needs a rescue one can typically expect a bill. Taking personal responsibility is not relying on others to pay for your rescue. It does not matter if for climbing or mushroom picking or hunting.

What makes Europe the gold standard? 

“Further the last statement is often said, but I have yet to see any actual data to back that up.”

I remember a winter search for elk hunters in the Idaho panhandle where footprints later showed the hunters hid from searchers (out of embarrassment apparently) and then perished trying to follow the searchers. A huge fine would be even more of an incentive to avoid using SAR.

I went on a night search for a hiker who had called for help. Was on a trail, but no map or flashlight. He ignored our requests to stay put till we got there, trying to avoid imaginary fines and citations  by finding his way out.

SAR volunteers I know do NOT want fines, unless the behavior of the victim is blatantly, willfully illegal and dangerous in the extreme. Ignorance is not that.

Zachary Winters wrote:

Party of 8, climbing in pairs but all together. Climbed the first 7 pitches in 11 pitches so thought they were done. Couldn't see in the dark that they still had 600ft to climb so started "walking off" into awful off-route terrain. They called 911 and were coached over the phone by SAR to get back to a secure ledge they could shelter in place and wait for rescue. 6 were guided down. 2 wouldn't/couldn't rappel, so 1 was hauled up and 1 was guided up after many hours of warming. Significant snow storm didn't simplify things any.

So... I can see how this could happen. On that route there are some rap stations that can be confused with anchors. If you do that, you could actually split a single pitch into two pitches accidentally. Do that a couple times and suddenly you think you've climbed 11 pitches when you've actually only climbed 7, (definitely possible on that route).  

It'd be interesting to know if that's what happened here.

I'm glad to hear that everyone got home safely from the incident at the top of the post.

To the thread's drift into the topic of how to balance hubris and paranoia, I don't have a solution here, only thoughts on solutions that have been mentioned so far in this thread:

In Europe, pretty much everyone has rescue insurance (often through their alpine club) that covers the rescue bill. This leads to its own set of issues, especially around unnecessary rescues.

About "but some states actually have this clause and have never implemented it," NH has implemented this; I'm not sure how it fits in their "live free or die" mindset; I suppose "live with insurance and don't die" doesn't have much cred on a license plate... I have friends who have been fined for reckless hiking. Not so long ago, NH upped the ante to charge hikers with criminal "endangerment." They also sell a hiker card for 25$, which is essentially a year's worth of rescue insurance in NH.

9 year WEMT member of Olympic Mountain Rescue here- been on rescues in every county in Western Washington including a 4 day search and body recovery near Mazama in one of my first years on the team.  I don't know any SAR volunteers that advocate for sending a bill to the victims/subjects we go out to help.  I only ever hear this from arm chair warriors who do not pick up the phone at 2am to throw on long johns and head into the hills to bushwack for 72hrs. 

It's very unusual for us to go out on a mission and not get a donation in the following weeks from the family/friends of who-ever was involved.

I don't understand the people who -BEFORE having the complete story- are criticizing any actions that were taken.  Who are you trying to impress?  

Just pinged the 2 folks I know with CCMR if they have any more info.

Zachary Winters wrote:

Party of 8, climbing in pairs but all together. Climbed the first 7 pitches in 11 pitches so thought they were done. Couldn't see in the dark that they still had 600ft to climb so started "walking off" into awful off-route terrain. They called 911 and were coached over the phone by SAR to get back to a secure ledge they could shelter in place and wait for rescue. 6 were guided down. 2 wouldn't/couldn't rappel, so 1 was hauled up and 1 was guided up after many hours of warming. Significant snow storm didn't simplify things any.

This seems like a much more reasonable situation to call for rescue than I was expecting. I was imagining an 8-person train that basically got tired, ran out of water and then called for SAR lol

Zachary Winters wrote:

Party of 8, climbing in pairs but all together. Climbed the first 7 pitches in 11 pitches so thought they were done. Couldn't see in the dark that they still had 600ft to climb so started "walking off" into awful off-route terrain. They called 911 and were coached over the phone by SAR to get back to a secure ledge they could shelter in place and wait for rescue. 6 were guided down. 2 wouldn't/couldn't rappel, so 1 was hauled up and 1 was guided up after many hours of warming. Significant snow storm didn't simplify things any.

Assuming this was on Prime Rib, almost the exact same thing actually happened to me. A friend and I tried to link Flyboys and Prime Rib in a day, but went really slow. Started Prime Rib with only a few hours of sunlight left and in our tiredness we got a bit confused by the belay/rapel stations and lost count of the pitches. We just thought we were nearing the top.

IIRC from the top of pitch 7 you scramble up a slab and a series of small ledges up to a large tree and large ledge system. The next bolt line is right by this tree, but the first bolt is 10-15 feet up. By this point it was dark and we hiked all around this ledge system looking for either a bolt line, or a hike off because we believed we were near the top, but we did not see the high first bolt. My partner followed a trail and scrambled a ways up a loose gully looking for a hike off before retreating and almost fell, which certainly would have been to his death. I had service but my phone died, he had no service.

We did not feel confident going back down the slab and scramble in the dark, and even if we made it to the bottom of the slab we did not know exactly where the rappel station would be. We decided our safest bet was to spend the night on the ledge and shiver bivvied. We cuddled for warmth, and barely got any sleep. It was very cold and we were under prepared. When we woke up, we realized we slept almost immediately beneath the bolt line. 

We topped out and ran into a police car on the way down who was looking for us. Our friends had arrived to our campsite the afternoon of our climb and reported us as missing when we didn’t show up that evening. In the end, I think our decision to stay put was our smartest option, but stuff like this happens. 

E MuuD wrote:

So... I can see how this could happen. On that route there are some rap stations that can be confused with anchors. If you do that, you could actually split a single pitch into two pitches accidentally. Do that a couple times and suddenly you think you've climbed 11 pitches when you've actually only climbed 7, (definitely possible on that route).  

It'd be interesting to know if that's what happened here.

Yes, that's exactly what happened with this recent incident. Of course we/climbers need to be processing more information besides seeing two bolts and calling it a pitch. An attentive route-finder should notice that the pitch is supposed to have 12 bolts, but for some reason only had 4. Or it should stick out that the description of pitch 11 is "climb a chimney to a leftward overhanging hand traverse" and the description of pitch 7 involves thin slab moves -- it's definitely possible to get confused, but some of this should be considered a red flag, not nuanced terrain reading.

Sam Ehmann wrote:

Assuming this was on Prime Rib, almost the exact same thing actually happened to me. A friend and I tried to link Flyboys and Prime Rib in a day, but went really slow. Started Prime Rib with only a few hours of sunlight left and in our tiredness we got a bit confused by the belay/rapel stations and lost count of the pitches. We just thought we were almost at the top.

IIRC from the top of pitch 7 you scramble up a slab and a series of small ledges up to a large tree and large ledge system. The next bolt line is right by this tree, but the first bolt is 10-15 feet up. By this point it was dark and we hiked all around this ledge system looking for either a bolt line, or a hike off because we believed we were near the top, but we did not see the high first bolt. My partner followed a trail and scrambled a ways up a loose gully looking for a hike off before retreating and almost fell, which certainly would have been to his death. I had service but my phone died, he had no service.

We did not feel confident going back down the slab and scramble in the dark, and even if we made it to the bottom of the slab we did not know where the rappel station would be. We decided our safest bet was to spend the night on the ledge and shiver bivvied. We cuddled for warmth, and barely got any sleep. It was freezing and we were under prepared. When we woke up, we realized we slept almost immediately beneath the bolt line. 

We topped out and ran into a police car on the way down who was looking for us. Our friends had arrived to our campsite the afternoon of our climb and reported us as missing when we didn’t show up that evening. In the end, I think our decision to stay put was our smartest option, but stuff like this happens. 

Sam, huge respect for sharing your mistakes and lessons learned in this public format. It sounds like your experience was extremely similar to what happened last week. Yes, it was on Prime Rib, and in the exact same terrain between pitch 7 and 8. Tricky bit of terrain between pitches there to navigate in the dark. Way to hunker down, shiver bivvy, and safely get yourself out the next day. Out of curiosity, how do you think your outcome would have differed if your phone battery had not died, or if your partner would've had service? Would you have let your friends know what was going on? Would you have given SAR a heads up, or called for a rescue? No judgement either way, just curious what was going through your mind at the time, and what you think you'd do if it were to happen again after reflecting on your past experience? Thanks for engaging, Sam - super interesting.