Setter dies while setting routes in a gym

There is a memorial thread here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/126209982/lee-hansche-passion-personified 

This is only the 2nd death I've heard for a setter on the job, and the first was a friend back at Rocknasium in Davis CA (where Beth Rodden climbed at the time) in the 90s.  Are there others?  And does anyone know the circumstances in the present incident?

Not to side track, but man Rocknasium is wild. Walked in for the first time 13 years ago and asked to take a lead test.... they just handed me a rope and said they would call me and my partner out  if we did anything stupid. Really?!?
So in theory, deck and die, and then the staff will tell your carcass and now traumatized belayer what you did wrong. I always wondered who insured them, cause damn.

Rest in Paradise Lee. I know he was foundational member of the north east climbing community and will be missed.

Thanks for starting this thread as a separate discussion from the memorial thread. I never met Lee, but he sounds like a great person. The memorial thread deserves space to talk about his life without dwelling on the accident.

But this accident is also a very notable incident that may have broader implications in the climbing gym world -- once the details are known. At this point we don't know much, other than that it was an accident while setting. Hopefully and presumably this will be investigated and reported on. Until then, we should refrain from speculation.

As John RB notes, there have been few fatal accidents in climbing routesetting, despite a history of sonewhat dodgy safety practices and standards and regulation.  That industry is already at a turning point in terms of standards and regulation, and this accident may hasten that process. This may depend on the details of the accident, once known.

JCM wrote:

Thanks for starting this thread as a separate discussion from the memorial thread. I never met Lee, but he sounds like a great person. The memorial thread deserves space to talk about his life without dwelling on the accident.

But this accident is also a very notable incident that may have broader implications in the climbing gym world -- once the details are known. At this point we don't know much, other than that it was an accident while setting. Hopefully and presumably this will be investigated and reported on. Until then, we should refrain from speculation.

As John RB notes, there have been few fatal accidents in climbing routesetting, despite a history of sonewhat dodgy safety practices and standards and regulation.  That industry is already at a turning point in terms of standards and regulation, and this accident may hasten that process. This may depend on the details of the accident, once known.

Excellent points and a take I agree with. The potential for ripples in the climbing pool is real.

There are some not so fun anecdotes floating the interwebs around this incident, that if true, will open up a road that may change industry standards very quick as mentioned.
I feel for this humans friends and family...the gym is one area I think most of let our guard down as it was designed for the activity.
Sending all the love to those personally effected by this tragedy.

If he was an employee of the gym there will be an OSHA investigation. 

> If he was an employee of the gym there will be an OSHA investigation.

He was, and there is. It'll be months before their report is ready. Most of me doesn't want to know the details. But the part of me that does want to know will win out, I am sure.

The people close to this most likely don't want to disclose anything in part to legal considerations in case there's a lawsuit.  But learning that a setter died on the job tells you almost nothing.  Could be things not even related to setting (heart attack, electric shock, etc) or could be related (falling off a lift).  At some point we'll find out.

I didn't know this guy at all, but sounds like he was loved by a huge number of people in the climbing community.   Sad news :(

https://gearjunkie.com/climbing/indoor-climbing-gym-fall-death-vertical-dreams

Article on Gear Junkie last week shared some information on this sad event.

John RB wrote:

There is a memorial thread here: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/126209982/lee-hansche-passion-personified 

This is only the 2nd death I've heard for a setter on the job, and the first was a friend back at Rocknasium in Davis CA (where Beth Rodden climbed at the time) in the 90s.  Are there others?  And does anyone know the circumstances in the present incident?

Not to side track again, but there has never been a setter death at Rocknasium. This is confirmed by the owners.

I didn’t know Lee, but it sounds like he was an incredible guy and loved by many inside and outside of the climbing community - I wish I could’ve met him. My heart hurts for his family and loved ones. My deepest condolences to them. 

Karli L wrote:

Not to side track again, but there has never been a setter death at Rocknasium. This is confirmed by the owners.

I didn’t know Lee, but it sounds like he was an incredible guy and loved by many inside and outside of the climbing community - I wish I could’ve met him. My heart hurts for his family and loved ones. My deepest condolences to them. 

Did someone say there was? I even responded to that around how sketchy it was there. SMH. I must be tired after a week in the high country. I am Tarp as a Shack.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Did someone say there was?

See the first post in this thread.

Karli L wrote:

Not to side track again, but there has never been a setter death at Rocknasium. This is confirmed by the owners.

Is Squirrel still the owner? He would have been at the time. 

I wasn't there at the time but reportedly it happened after hours where a group of the employees was jumping off of the lead wall backwards onto a 5' thick gymnastics mat and one guy hit his lower body on the mat but his head went off the edge and hit the concrete. Maybe I'm wrong and he was not a setter. All of this is second hand but that was the story I was told 30 years ago.

Apologies for any and all mistakes in the above

This is horrible, devestating news.  Lee was a major figure in NH sport climbing, and way too young to be gone.

John RB wrote:

Is Squirrel still the owner? He would have been at the time. 

I wasn't there at the time but reportedly it happened after hours where a group of the employees was jumping off of the lead wall backwards onto a 5' thick gymnastics mat and one guy hit his lower body on the mat but his head went off the edge and hit the concrete. Maybe I'm wrong and he was not a setter. All of this is second hand but that was the story I was told 30 years ago.

Apologies for any and all mistakes in the above

No worries, just hoping to clear things up. Squirrel is no longer co-owner, but Marko still is since the gym opened in ‘92. He remembers this incident.

This was not a Rocknasium employee and also did not happen at Rocknasium. The guy however was a member there at the time, which is probably why you’ve heard the story. It happened at another gym in Nor-Cal. A group of people were messing around and one guy missed the mat. Major bummer.

Karli L wrote:

No worries, just hoping to clear things up. Squirrel is no longer co-owner, but Marko still is since the gym opened in ‘92. He remembers this incident.

This was not a Rocknasium employee and also did not happen at Rocknasium. The guy however was a member there at the time, which is probably why you’ve heard the story. It happened at another gym in Nor-Cal. A group of people were messing around and one guy missed the mat. Major bummer.

Got it.  I was working on my PhD at UC Davis, climbed there regularly, and heard this story.  I knew the person who died, sort of.  In fact, his name may have also been Lee, but it's been so long.  And I was sure he was a setter at Rocknasium, but I'm obviously wrong.  Apologies to Rocknasium (not that the incident would have been their fault even if it had occurred there.)

Full respects to Lee, his family, his loved ones, and his friends. Climb on in his memory.

The routesetters at my local gym seem to tie off one end of the dynamic rope to a hanger at the bottom of the route, then jug on the other side of the "fixed" line. That introduces double the length of rope that can fail while supporting your body weight. A very far cry from the industry accepted standard of two, independent fixed STATIC lines with a primary for jugging and a secondary for your fall arrestor.

I'm incredibly interested in the OSHA report and more focus on the industry. Every setter I've met has a "I've been doing this for years" mentality about their rope access habits when they've become complacent on a simple fact: Rope access is not rock climbing. If the person you learned from is not an IRATA/SPRAT instructor, don't trust your life to their FA-FO.

Knowledge: technical rescue trained with IRATA 2.

Connor Freefall wrote:

The routesetters at my local gym seem to tie off one end of the dynamic rope to a hanger at the bottom of the route, then jug on the other side of the "fixed" line. That introduces double the length of rope that can fail while supporting your body weight. A very far cry from the industry accepted standard of two, independent fixed STATIC lines with a primary for jugging and a secondary for your fall arrestor.

Umm I really hope they are not using dynamic ropes for route setting…

Connor Freefall wrote:

Full respects to Lee, his family, his loved ones, and his friends. Climb on in his memory.

The routesetters at my local gym seem to tie off one end of the dynamic rope to a hanger at the bottom of the route, then jug on the other side of the "fixed" line. That introduces double the length of rope that can fail while supporting your body weight. A very far cry from the industry accepted standard of two, independent fixed STATIC lines with a primary for jugging and a secondary for your fall arrestor.

couple things you might be able to clear up.

Why "fixed" in quotes? It is fixed if the rope is tied off / anchored.

What do you mean can fail while supporting your body weight? The rope? The hanger?
This doesn't make any sense to me the way it is written.
Just because there is more rope in the system how does that equate to more failure? If the rope was fixed up top and not down low and failed... you get the same scenario if the rope failed. A fall, as your single line is no longer anchored.
I think I must be just having issues with the structure of your sentence or something.

Rope access and route setting are also not the same industry as much as they are work at height fields, just like I'm TD/rigger of an aerial dance company and we perform on single ropes every time, which is industry standard for our field for obvious reasons.... This isnt to say in certain settings 2 rope systems are not the best (like when we rescue it's 2 ropes), which absolutely is standard for a reason in industrial settings typical work at height scenarios, but in a controlled environment designed for single ropes, that has people whipping on those single ropes all day long its seems odd to bring up.
Every lead fall at the fist hanger in a gym is a single point whip with no redundancy if it blows.

I’m assuming fixed is in quotes because it’s commonly understood that fixed lines are anchored at the top. In the setting scenario described, the rope is fixed at the bottom of the wall and redirected through the anchor with the setter ascending the free end. 

Mr Rogers wrote:

couple things you might be able to clear up.

Why "fixed" in quotes? It is fixed if the rope is tied off / anchored.

What do you mean can fail while supporting your body weight? The rope? The hanger?
This doesn't make any sense to me the way it is written.
Just because there is more rope in the system how does that equate to more failure? If the rope was fixed up top and not down low and failed... you get the same scenario if the rope failed. A fall, as your single line is no longer anchored.
I think I must be just having issues with the structure of your sentence or something.

Rope access and route setting are also not the same industry as much as they are work at height fields, just like I'm TD/rigger of an aerial dance company and we perform on single ropes every time, which is industry standard for our field for obvious reasons.... This isnt to say in certain settings 2 rope systems are not the best (like when we rescue it's 2 ropes), which absolutely is standard for a reason in industrial settings typical work at height scenarios, but in a controlled environment designed for single ropes, that has people whipping on those single ropes all day long its seems odd to bring up.
Every lead fall at the fist hanger in a gym is a single point whip with no redundancy if it blows.

Thanks for the questions, I really appreciate it. I put fixed in quotes for the exact reason you describe - it's a single line that appears to the third party to be two fixed lines until closer inspection, but for the same reason you mention that a whip at the first bolt is a zero redundancy fall, having your placement be on the wear plate/pipe at the top of the route with your line fixed all the way to a bottom hanger is zero redundancy, and in fact negative redundancy, with twice the anchor points to fail and twice the rope in your system to abrade or otherwise be sliced by a falling tool or tampered with from the ground while you're up on the line. 

I agree that two rope systems aren't ideal for say, acrobatics and rigging. And I agree that the broader term routesetting and access are different in ways. But I would put up a small argument that specifically Routesetting indoors and Access are more alike than different. Gyms are a place of employment, and they are required to follow standards set by OSHA in the US in order to protect individual citizens rights to be alive with reprieve from dangerous working conditions. This has largely been a grey area so far, and I believe as the industry's align closer and the Routesetting community seeks the proper recognition for their unique field and developed culture of skills, they will earn this recognition easiest by aligning with the existing rope access industry and their standards.

JCM is right on target. 

For most of us everything is speculation at this juncture. Two ropes, dynamic ropes, fixed ropes...who knows what he was doing??  We don't even know for sure if he was setting at the time of the accident. I do know OSHA has the authority to give citations and fines, and their findings can lead to new industry regulations.  I'm not sure OSHA has routesetters on staff so I pray that they use industry experts who are qualified. 

BTW I have never heard of a workplace fatality that occurred in the US while the victim was setting at a gym. If that is correct, this will set precedent.