Critique my rappel extension

Was messing around with this recently. Seems better than a bowline and an overhand, which is what I usually go for, but lacks the built in tether. Thoughts? 

Climbing Weasel wrote:

Was messing around with this recently. Seems better than a bowline and an overhand, which is what I usually go for, but lacks the built in tether. Thoughts?

Why not just do this? alpinesavvy.com/blog/double…

You may as well use a single-length sling if you use it the way you have it set up. Too many knots, too short for a tether at the anchor in many situations.

Best rappel extension with a double length in my opinion is the girth hitched sling with a single overhand knot in the middle. Long tether, simple config so it’s easy to check, and fast to rig.

I guess that this will be a thread hijack, but seems an appropriate place to ask--what is the deal with rappell extensions? I understand that I am a crusty old dad stuck in the Neolithic, but I do not understand the apparent obsession many seem to have with using an extension for regular rappels. I'm seeing them being used more and more and am told that some groups are teaching them as routine. I believe that whenever possible in climbing, simplicity is best, especially in something as inherently risky ( and with such a deep 'accident pedigree') as rappelling. Using an extension involves at least one extra 'step' as well as at least one additional piece of equipment---both potential opportunities for failure or mistakes. What is the benefit ( or benefits) of using an extension in routine rappelling situations ( I realize that it has value in certain situations--rescue, for example, so is worthwhile to learn as an 'advanced technique')? Sorry for the hijack, but I am honestly mystified by this development.

Alan Rubin wrote:

I guess that this will be a thread hijack, but seems an appropriate place to ask--what is the deal with rappell extensions? I understand that I am a crusty old dad stuck in the Neolithic, but I do not understand the apparent obsession many seem to have with using an extension for regular rappels. I'm seeing them being used more and more and am told that some groups are teaching them as routine. I believe that whenever possible in climbing, simplicity is best, especially in something as inherently risky ( and with such a deep 'accident pedigree') as rappelling. Using an extension involves at least one extra 'step' as well as at least one additional piece of equipment---both potential opportunities for failure or mistakes. What is the benefit ( or benefits) of using an extension in routine rappelling situations ( I realize that it has value in certain situations--rescue, for example, so is worthwhile to learn as an 'advanced technique')? Sorry for the hijack, but I am honestly mystified by this development.

As a fellow crusty traddad, I agree about simplicity. But for rappelling, I just prefer both hands on the brake strands. It just  feels  better to me, so I often use an extension . (And it's the main reason I don't like rapping with a GriGri - one hand on the lever and one hand on the brake strand feels awkward)

Alan Rubin wrote:

I guess that this will be a thread hijack, but seems an appropriate place to ask--what is the deal with rappell extensions? I understand that I am a crusty old dad stuck in the Neolithic, but I do not understand the apparent obsession many seem to have with using an extension for regular rappels. I'm seeing them being used more and more and am told that some groups are teaching them as routine. I believe that whenever possible in climbing, simplicity is best, especially in something as inherently risky ( and with such a deep 'accident pedigree') as rappelling. Using an extension involves at least one extra 'step' as well as at least one additional piece of equipment---both potential opportunities for failure or mistakes. What is the benefit ( or benefits) of using an extension in routine rappelling situations ( I realize that it has value in certain situations--rescue, for example, so is worthwhile to learn as an 'advanced technique')? Sorry for the hijack, but I am honestly mystified by this development.

Hey Allen, I’m a fairly new climber (only been at it for a year and a half and trad climbing for right at a year). In my learning, I’ve valued the approach of having “tools in my toolbox”. I don’t tend to use an extended rap every time, but I do use it some. Sometimes I’ll use it to pre-rig my groups rappel, but I’ll always use it for a free-hanging rap. I feel like this article does a good job explaining both pros and cons of the system. https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/the-extended-rappel-explained?format=amp 

Alan Rubin wrote:

I guess that this will be a thread hijack, but seems an appropriate place to ask--what is the deal with rappell extensions? I understand that I am a crusty old dad stuck in the Neolithic, but I do not understand the apparent obsession many seem to have with using an extension for regular rappels. I'm seeing them being used more and more and am told that some groups are teaching them as routine. I believe that whenever possible in climbing, simplicity is best, especially in something as inherently risky ( and with such a deep 'accident pedigree') as rappelling. Using an extension involves at least one extra 'step' as well as at least one additional piece of equipment---both potential opportunities for failure or mistakes. What is the benefit ( or benefits) of using an extension in routine rappelling situations ( I realize that it has value in certain situations--rescue, for example, so is worthwhile to learn as an 'advanced technique')? Sorry for the hijack, but I am honestly mystified by this development.

So the “standard” rappel extension/tether is a single nylon double length runner girth hitched to the belay loop, with an overhand about half way down the length of the runner.

This allows you to extend the rappel so you can have your third hand clipped with a locker to your belay loop.  This is better than your leg loop because if you lose control of the rappel for any reason and rotate your hips, the third hand on your leg loop will fail.

Also, having a tether allows you to simply rig and test your rappel prior to coming off the anchor and committing to the rappel. Also, you can “pre-rig” your rappels with your partner when multi pitch rappelling and test together.

I always extend my rappel with a third hand.

Demetri V wrote:

So the “standard” rappel extension/tether is a single nylon double length runner girth hitched to the belay loop, with an overhand about half way down the length of the runner.

This allows you to extend the rappel so you can have your third hand clipped with a locker to your belay loop.  This is better than your leg loop because if you lose control of the rappel for any reason and rotate your hips, the third hand on your leg loop will fail.

Also, having a tether allows you to simply rig and test your rappel prior to coming off the anchor and committing to the rappel. Also, you can “pre-rig” your rappels with your partner when multi pitch rappelling and test together.

I always extend my rappel with a third hand.

I have no idea what a 'third hand' means, I only have 2---and those 2 have worked fine with my unexrended belay device ( usually my trusty ATC--something else folks will complain about) for more than a handful of raps---seriously.

Alan Rubin wrote:

I have no idea what a 'third hand' means, I only have 2---and those 2 have worked fine with my unexrended belay device ( usually my trusty ATC--something else folks will complain about) for more than a handful of raps---seriously.

Could you foresee ever letting go of your brake strand, for any reason? Maybe knocked unconscious by rockfall? A swarm of bees? Heart attack? The "third hand" is your rappel backup/autoblock and is a good safety measure. No matter how many times you have rappelled successfully without it.

Heh... I wonder how many folks know how long Al has been in the game.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Heh... I wonder how many folks know how long Al has been in the game.

Posts from guide influencers on Instagram trump everything now from what I can see.

YGD

Alan Rubin wrote:

I have no idea what a 'third hand' means, I only have 2---and those 2 have worked fine with my unexrended belay device ( usually my trusty ATC--something else folks will complain about) for more than a handful of raps---seriously.

I am not quite as old as Al but probably crustier. Al, the third hand is what BITD we would call adding a prussik backup. Here is the chronological order of the "evolution" of the rappel extension.

1. Std "ATC" rappel setup with a biner or two clipped into a belay loop and ATC. No "backup" i.e. no thirdhand.

2. Same as 1 but with a prussik or other knot above the ATC, the prussik is clipped off to the belay loop, one hand below the ATC to control the rope, one hand above the ATC to control the knot  - issue is that one can descend past the prussik thus locking it off.

3. Same as 1 but with a prussik or other knot below the ATC - the prussik is clipped off to the leg loop, one hand below the ATC controls both the knot and the rope - issue is that the prussik knot can get sucked into the ATC, also when the prussik is locked off the weight is on a single the leg loop.

4. Current solution. Extend the ATC 12"-16" with a sling, prussik or other knot below the ATC - the prussik is clipped off to the belay loop. Requires both hand to be used below the ATC, one to control the rope, one to slide the knot. The extension prevents the prussik knot from getting sucked into the ATC, also when the prussik is locked off the weight is on the belay loop. 

I use 2, as I am well aware of the issue and how to prevent it. 

As for the OP's extension. It looks like a knotted mess. I am not sure what you are trying to solve. KISS.

The extension lowers your center of gravity. Besides making room for an auto block it also keeps you upright if you are wearing a pack with weight on your back.

chris hubbard wrote:

The extension lowers your center of gravity. Besides making room for an auto block it also keeps you upright if you are wearing a pack with weight on your back.

Hey Chris!  How goes?

The extended rappel device is still pulling up from the belay loop or tie-in path (hard points). So the only thing that counteracts a high center of gravity is your arm pulling on your brake hand. To consistently counter a center of gravity, you would have to connect a chest harness or chest sling to the locker holding the rappel device. 

assuming you always use a backup knot, extending your atc means the backup knot never holds your full body weight, since as it catches, the brake strand is pulled into the brake position and this geometry itself does some of the braking work, not just the knot. if you don't extend your atc, the backup knot takes your full weight since it's above the device, and it's always a pain to force loose again when you try to go down

Was trying to fix a problem that’s already been solved with a worse, over complicated solution that’s fiddlier and has less utility. Tested it out today.  Will be sticking with the standard girth hitch overhand. Sidenote- Alan, you’ve put up some absolutely delightful routes at rose ledge. Thank you!!

Old crusty here…. I agree with Al 100% 

As someone who had to save a fellow who couldn’t reach the 3rd hand when it grabbed, inadvertently, and left him hanging. I always wonder “who came up with this?”.

I come from the school of fastest is best/safest method.

And as far as wearing a pack and rappelling… if it’s heavy- sling that sucker between your legs! Always.

Carry on

If you haven't tried using an extension, you should at least give it a go.  I use one whenever I'm doing more than one or two rappels on a descent.  The main reason is it's much more ergonomic -- easier to lock off and control your speed, easier on your grip strength due to its position.  It has a few ancillary benefits as well: has the benefit of not being in the way of a prussik; the way I tie it integrates a personal tether in a convenient location that makes multiple rappels easy; allows for stacking rappels at the anchor if you want.

I use a double length sling.  Girth hitch that to belay loop, overhand knot halfway up with the sling racking biner in the knot so it can be untied easily, locker in top half for tether and atc in bottom half.  The knot in the original post does indeed look like a lot of faff, not sure what problem it's trying to solve.

Of all the newfangled techniques and instagram-climbing-guide hacks, this one is probably the most useful and actually nice to know systems.  There's a good reason many people have moved to it.  

A rap extension does make it easier for top-heavy / pack-wearing people to stay upright, but through a mechanism few people understand.  The explanation "lowers your center of gravity" is kind of true but incomplete.  The important part is that an extension moves your brake hand farther away from your center of gravity, thus giving the brake hand more leverage for keeping you upright.

I do think "simpler is better" is a valid perspective for people who (teach people who) rappel rarely enough to forget how the system works. Lately I got to watch a few people try to build extended rappel after learning it and passing an exam but then not using it for a couple of years. The % of them that end up with a broken configuration (prusik defeated by the ATC) is concerning. Either they forget what attaches where or buy a longer prusik and fail to realize that the extension needs to be longer now. I'm starting to think prusik-above (Allen's #2) might actually be safer for people like that.

Also, an extension makes it harder to transfer your weight to the device from semi-hanging belays.  I absolutely hated this until I learned to make it work with super-short extensions (but I guess that's not recommended in general because it defeats most of the benefits of extension and makes the safety of the system very sensitive to using a short-enough prusik)

Eric Craig wrote:

Does anyone have statistics (the kind that are based on actual facts) on rappelling accidents? Rappelling with and without a prussik(third hand)? 

This would be really hard to quantify, most people only record statistics after/when accidents occur. Comparing accidents that occurred with or without the application of a third hand would need to be narrowed to only those accidents in which an injury occurred due to an uncontrolled descent/"loss of control of the brake hand". You would also need to factor for the percentage of instances where the rappeller's third hand is too loose or slippery to be effective. In my experience, uncontrolled rappelling descents account for a small percentage of rappel accidents amongst climbers. Anecdotally and based on stats recorded the past few decades by the AAC NAAM, the OVERWHELMING majority of fatal rappel accidents occur due to a failure to close the system (and typically a second contributing factor, too short of rope, rope not set at middle, cut rope, wrong descent route, etc.), a third hand, while of a great utility, does not protect against these types of accidents. In the hierarchy of things to worry about closing the system and weighting the system prior to committing to it come first, and using a third hand is second. Improperly loading the ATC and clipping 1 or no strands is probably the second biggest cause of accidents. While this should always get caught in a visual check or when weighting the system, properly installing a third hand has surely saved quite a few folks from terrible outcomes over the years. 

Most rappel accidents, at least as recorded in ANAM and other accounts that I have read, including those involving failures to close the system as mentioned above, happen as a result of errors at the rappel 'stance' ( and even rapping off the end of the rope is often attributable to an error at the stance). In my opinion, the more additional steps required at the stance and the more 'clutter' involved just increases the opportunities for such errors. As I said when I posed my initial query upthread, I can see the utility of extensions in certain situations, but as a 'norm', they just seem to add additional complications to a situation that is already rife with potential for mistakes.