Locktite on Wedge Bolt Nuts/Quicklinks

Curious on folks thoughts about this as it’s something I’ve been seeing/hearing more on the front range. I’m assuming it’s to prevent bolts from spinning/links from opening but as far as I can tell it’s not really super helpful there and instead just makes bolts impossible to tighten when they do loosen/quicklinks harder to replace when it comes time to it - but I’m mainly working on theory rather than practice.

What do you all think?

I never use Locktite, mainly for the reasons you stated.  On Quicklinks I only finger tighten them, if an anchor has chain and Quicklinks I like to be able to unscrew and place the rope in the link as opposed to having to unite and thread the rope.  If its an area that gets high traffic I will wrench them down just to prevent theft.

I've been using blue (Medium Strength) lotcite on anchor and permadraw quicklinks for the last decade.  It doesn't make them any harder to replace.  Plated quicklinks naturally seize with corrosion,  the loctite helps seal out moisture and prevent corrosion on the threads making them easier to undo later.  stainless is more prone to loosening so the loctite takes care of that.  I've seen too many quicklinks/permadraws that got loose, people fell on them and now they're misaligned and can't be screwed shut. I don't work a lot with wedge bolts, but I'd suspect the blue loctite would still allow for tightening if necessary while keeping the nut and hanger from completely popping off, which is the number one cause of failure of climbing anchors by far. Anecdotedly I've replaced half a dozen nuts/ hangers just in Potrero from this issue. I wouldn't use red loctite, but I have had success opening quicklinks that other people used red on, albeit a pain in the ass and sometimes requiring a second wrench. I could see a stud spinning in the hole with red on the threads if you try to tighten or remove the nut. 

Dr. Rockso makes a key distinction:  blue locktite only.  That's the type that is designed to be non-permanent/removable.  Blue is also available in a paste-stick-- looks and feels like one of those pre-school glue sticks-- which makes it way easier to apply just a little to the threads of a wedge bolt.  I carry a stick of that in my kit now, but since it's a recently adopted idea for me, I forget about using it most of the time.

Neither here nor there for this discussion, but if anyone from the Locktite corporation is listening in on this thread:  your product packaging is the dumbest.  In its regular form-- that gel that looks like writing icing for cake decoration-- the "red" (permanent) kind comes in a blue tube, and the "blue" kind comes in a red tube.  It's like you want legions of homeowners to ruin their weekend projects.  Maybe you've got a deal worked out with Home Depot or something.  :)

As has been said, the blue works well on ss. It adds just enough to make up for the slipperiness of the steel. I've never had a problem removing the nuts from (304 or 316) bolts or tightening them down more. The added friction is pretty minimal but it seems to be just enough. 

I wouldn't worry too much about using it unless the bolt's in overhanging rock where the hanger would be more likely to fall off given a loose nut. Or possibly where the hanger could be rotated counter-clockwise (first bolt, right-trending line, etc.), but this can be mitigated in other (better) ways.

By the way, I get my blue "Loctite" from Harbor Fraught, so take that for what it's worth.

I’ve been using blue loctite for awhile now.  I’ve came across so many stainless steel wedge bolts missing hangers or having loose hangers that I think some solution to mitigate the problem is required.  I’ve read that adding the loctite can act as a lubricant which could change the torque when tightening the bolt up so be aware.  Another option is using jam nuts, which might be the best option.  Or come back and re torque the bolts which isnt always practical and just doesn’t seem to get done.  

I’ve found that the dewalt powerstuds can loosen up after placement. I’ve been using blue loctite on these to help, which seems to be effective. In contrast, the Hilti KBs I’ve placed in similar limestone have stayed tight. Not sure if this is a quirk of the Powerstud’s design? They definitely take a few extra turns to tighten up. 

I don’t see any issue since the bolt will hold as long as the nut is engaged with the bolt threads. Haven’t come across any that have become spinners yet either. I can’t imagine it will impact replacement efforts, but I live in a dry climate so I’ll be long gone before any of mine need to be swapped. 

The new Fixe hangers have helped reduce lessening due to their new design of having a slight bulge stamped in around the bolt hole.   Haven’t yet had to re tighten one yet but I’m sure that doesn’t mean they can’t  loosen.   

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

The new Fixe hangers have helped reduce lessening due to their new design of having a slight bulge stamped in around the bolt hole.   Haven’t yet had to re tighten one yet but I’m sure that doesn’t mean they can’t  loosen.   

Are you speaking of the Metolius spring force hanger? Great if you don't mind paying $11 for a hanger.. or does fixe have a new hanger out that I haven't seen?

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Are you speaking of the Metolius spring force hanger? Great if you don't mind paying $11 for a hanger.. or does fixe have a new hanger out that I haven't seen?

https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe-316-stainless-steel-hanger.html

It's a normal price and size but also has the conical/spring feature.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I’ve been using blue loctite for awhile now.  I’ve came across so many stainless steel wedge bolts missing hangers or having loose hangers that I think some solution to mitigate the problem is required.  I’ve read that adding the loctite can act as a lubricant which could change the torque when tightening the bolt up so be aware.  Another option is using jam nuts, which might be the best option.  Or come back and re torque the bolts which isnt always practical and just doesn’t seem to get done.  

this is true, and I have heard to reduce torque by 20%. Super common in automotive world to do so.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

  I’ve read that adding the loctite can act as a lubricant which could change the torque when tightening the bolt up so be aware.  

Most stud/wedge bolts specify an installation torque to engage the cone, once the cone is set the nut should simply hold the hanger tight. If you like to set to torque spec, place your bolt using a a torque wrench then back off the nut and add your loctite.

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Most stud/wedge bolts specify an installation torque to engage the cone, once the cone is set the nut should simply hold the hanger tight. If you like to set to torque spec, place your bolt using a a torque wrench then back off the nut and add your loctite.

This sounds like the proper beta honestly if you're gonna loc-tite it.
I wonder if the tightened nut adds some tension to the system.... It surely could be a arbitrary amount extra, and likely is, but the physics in my head just cant think it wouldn't add something. 

This is endlessly debated in the auto and motorcycle communities. Common wisdom is 80 to 100 percent of the specified torque. 

Ken Tubbs wrote:

This is endlessly debated in the auto and motorcycle communities. Common wisdom is 80 to 100 percent of the specified torque. 

I wouldn't be suprised if less than 10% of route developers are actually using a torque wrench when bolting new routes...

For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of blue loctite on stainless wedge anchors (in conjunction with a torque wrench).  Been using it for I think over 20 years at this point, on thousands of bolts.  It's never been a problem to loosen the nuts later, and it definitely reduces the amount of loosening of the nuts that happens otherwise.  It also reduces threads freezing over time on plated quicklinks, making it easier to replace them when they wear.  

DrRockso RRG wrote:

I wouldn't be suprised if less than 10% of route developers are actually using a torque wrench when bolting new routes...

I haven't used a torque wrench in probably 30 years.  I generally use a shorter wrench and have a good feel for what its supposed to be.  I would rather it be under torqued than over at least for wedge bolts.  I was using a torque wrench on a 5 piece rail several years ago and snapped the head off at close to torque recommendations.   That kinda freaked me out and made me wonder how many bolts are out there that were cranked down on to the point of almost snapping and what kind of fall would it take to finish the job.  Fortunately there aren't too many stories of bolts snapping during falls but it does happen.  I have tried pulling a wedge bolt out in granite that I didn't wrench down at all and it still took a lot of effort to pull out.  I don't think being a little under torque is too big an issue.

Kevin Mokracek wrote:

I haven't used a torque wrench in probably 30 years.  I generally use a shorter wrench and have a good feel for what its supposed to be.  I would rather it be under torqued than over at least for wedge bolts.  I was using a torque wrench on a 5 piece rail several years ago and snapped the head off at close to torque recommendations.   That kinda freaked me out and made me wonder how many bolts are out there that were cranked down on to the point of almost snapping and what kind of fall would it take to finish the job.  Fortunately there aren't too many stories of bolts snapping during falls but it does happen.  I have tried pulling a wedge bolt out in granite that I didn't wrench down at all and it still took a lot of effort to pull out.  I don't think being a little under torque is too big an issue.

Yup. It depends a lot on the particular bolt, 1/2" SS bolts (and the plated steel version) can take over 100 ft. lbs before shearing in my experience. I once hung my entire body weight on an 18" breaker bar trying to remove one and still didn't shear the head YMMV but they obviously can withstand well over the 25ft lbs torque spec on the 1/2" SS version. The manufacturer actually increased the spec to 30? recently.  3/8" 5 piece, having a 1/4" internal bolt are much more of a concern for over torqueing for sure. 

DrRockso RRG wrote:

Yup. It depends a lot on the particular bolt, 1/2" SS bolts (and the plated steel version) can take over 100 ft. lbs before shearing in my experience. I once hung my entire body weight on an 18" breaker bar trying to remove one and still didn't shear the head YMMV but they obviously can withstand well over the 25ft lbs torque spec on the 1/2" SS version. The manufacturer actually increased the spec to 30? recently.  3/8" 5 piece, having a 1/4" internal bolt are much more of a concern for over torqueing for sure. 

Only the carbon steel 3/8 5 piece have the 1/4 in internal thread. 

The SS version still has the 5/16" internal thread same as always.  The carbon steel version should not be used for climbing.

I will admit to using the red. I've rarely had trouble removing the nut if that becomes necessary/desirable. And a cordless Dremel allows me to slice the nut without damaging the stud in those RARE cases.

Blue is probably plenty. But I'm sensitive to the situation since I've been hit in the face a few times by hanger+quickdraw when a nut has disengaged under body weight. On other people's routes. People who didn't use either color of loctite.

Purple is probably about right for quicklinks that might need to be replaced.  I wouldn't go above blue personally though having snapped the heads on a few 1/4" bolts in my car trying to loosen them.  Red is generally best used for larger bolts like you find in automotive suspension where risk of snapping is lower.

There is also a company called Permatex which makes an Orange threadlocker if you want something between blue and red.  There's even a wicking green locktite which comes in medium or high strength that you could apply to existing bolts if you felt so inclined.

A note on using torque wrenches: torque specifications are usually designed to stretch the bolt to some extent to achieve greater holding power.  This may exceed the material's elastic deformation, and that's why some bolts are meant to be discarded and not reused once they've been tightened to spec.

Edit to add: dry torque spec does not equal ubricated torque spec.