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Anyone tried edge finger curls?
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Same as the title — has anyone tried training their fingers by concentrically curling an edge from open into a full crimp? The past year I switched from the hangboard to edge iso-curls with a Tindeq, with great results. (I really don't see myself using a hangboard ever again.) But isometric "curling" into an edge doesn't feel quite right, and even with an unlevel edge I don't think I get quite the same activation across all four fingers—my pinky in particular lags a bit. For my next training cycle, I'm going with actual curls off the ground: setup with an unlevel edge and weights on the ground as for OTGs, but actually concentrically curl the edge into four-finger flexion, then drop it. (I'm skipping the eccentric because I think it might be kinda tweaky; it's basically like a finger deadlift?) Just had a few sessions and it feels pretty nice. Most of the convenience of the isometric "curls", but with what feels like a bit more even distribution of load. The weight is substantially lower—I can iso-curl around 135lbs/hand, but I'm concentric-curling 5x70lbs/hand right now. I was a bit worried about tweakiness, but so far with dropping the weight it feels fine. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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I've done these quite a lot with a tension block and really like them. I'm relatively strong with traditional hangboard protocols but never felt like it translated well to actual climbing. I used to really struggle reeling in small incut edges to a closed crimp. I think curls have definitely improved my ability to close my hand down. I do higher rep (12-15) sets with lower weight on the smallest incut edge I can use comfortably. I also do the eccentric movement, aim for the full range of motion on every rep, and keep the movement slow. I'd say go for it and see if it makes a difference. Trying a new stimulus can't hurt as long as you manage the load appropriately. |
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I do the 'overcoming isometric' curls with a Tension block and a Tindeq attached to the ground, and I don't trust the numbers because it's hard to truly isolate the fingers and not 'cheat'. You need to have all the slack out or your fingers will curl and lose ROM before curling any weight, so I end up weighting it 25-30lbs just to get the slack out. You need to lock out your knees and elbows so they don't 'help', but when curling as hard as I can, it feels like my feet are pushing into the ground and 'helping'. Do you run into this issue with free weights? |
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I've switched all my finger work to doing curls with an uneven edge and I'm very impressed. I've been doing recovery and warm up sessions most days of the week (low weight, med volume, high frequency) since I'm more or less in a performance phase, but my hands have never felt this strong on small holds. Could be a few different variables in my case, but either way I like the way my hands feel from the switch, I'll be interested to see what the max numbers do this summer when I train strength, but for now my fingers feel healthy and I'm cranking |
Prav C wrote: No, the weights make it a bit easier since you're actually moving the weight. I still lock out my knees, elbows, and back as with the iso's but it's way less sensitive to cheating. You'd basically have to kip to get past a sticking point, which is so obvious you just wouldn't do it. I definitely agree with cheating/consistency being an issue with the iso's. For me, it's leaning back or twisting slightly, which gets a bit of extension even with all the relevant joints locked. I do think it kinda washes out in the end. I improved with the stricter form over time, and I improved with the yielding style by about as much over the same length of training. It's just… a little annoying, I guess. almostrad wrote: I'm just starting with the actual curls, but I had the same experience with the iso's. They felt way more active than hanging and a bit more than OTG's. (OTG's are technically yielding iso's but to me they feel more active than hangs, maybe due to the acceleration off the ground?) Between the iso's and board climbing / drills I improved a hell of a lot on small and bad holds this year despite having had a kid and thus only a fraction of my old training time available. FWIW I mentioned the idea to the C4HP team on Instagram. They're not exactly opposed, but Tyler thought the motion might aggravate the finger joints due to increased heat / friction on the pulleys. That definitely makes sense to me so I'm proceeding pretty cautiously with volume. I think in a past life that would've been really tough, but I have so little time now it's very hard to overtrain. :) |
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Blessing in disguise! I can tell it activates a lot more tissue in the chain (I feel my lumbricals fire a lot actually) and I'd imagine it could be bad news to do high load too fast with a totally new intervention. It was convenient I started doing them out of a strength phase so I didn't have to flirt with that. That's odd about Tyler's response. I started doing flexor tendon concentrics (literally finger curls) because he had the data to show how much better they were than yielding iso's/hangboard |
almostrad wrote: I know Tyler's supported overcoming isometrics, but when talking to him this year (training and rehab) he's always been cautious towards actual concentrics. I'm just willing to experiment here. I don't feel like isometrics have transferred all that well to the two things I'm trying to work on now, namely improving my flexion ROM and getting better at closing crimps. I'll see how it goes, I guess. |
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Ah, just doing the full ROM as opposed to curling against a "fixed" edge. That makes sense. Kind of in line with what you're saying, here's my hunch on what's working for me: Frequent light loading is supposed to be the best way to get synovial fluid exchange in the connective tissues, and rather than doing someone like a no hangs protocol, I'm engaging more of the tissue since I'm going through the full ROM we encounter in the sport. I haven't tested my max on a curl or uneven edge, but I'm doing curls at like 30% of my max pull on a tension block, half the days in the week. I think they're just helping me recover more so whatever strength gains I'm getting are likely from the actual climbing I'm doing. I can reel crimps in better than I've been able to in the past, but I can't say whether my hands just got stronger or it has to do with the curls |
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Did them for 1.5Y or so and mostly felt they were useful from a muscular perspective. Sort of as another way to stimulate aerobic metabolism in the forearm. During that time period I also felt, anecdotally, that they may have alleviated some of the soreness I get in my A5 from lots of crimping on very incut holds. When I performed them I did not skip the eccentric and did a normal finger curl. I actually think there is an advantage to performing the eccentric for building both tendon and muscle capacity, but my load was a lot lower than what is being described. I find that the idea of "reeling in" a crimp depends a lot more on positive than my fingers. I usually have to do this when I have already hit the hold and latched with control and have decided that a full crimp is the optimal grip to base the next moves off of. Not super different from hitting and doing a hold adjustment. The actual strength needed is not nearly as high as the full crimping itself and I usually use body tension to unweight the hand and make the transition into the grip easier. I would say I am above average in skill in this area and most of my harder sends have required the hit and adjustment. I've watched a lot of videos of stronger pros and if you slow it down they both hit in the end position and adjust into it. Usually the adjustment is just wrapping the thumb and if you watch in slow mo when they reel in the crimp you can see that they are using opposition to unweight the hand to do so. I definitely find that my shoulder engagement plays a role so I have never focused on this off the wall and it is really hold dependent. |
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Quick update on these after integrating them into my strength training during the week. I set up on a lat pulldown machine, curl the unlevel edge from open to crimped, do a one-arm pulldown, then open and repeat for reps. Obviously I'm limited by the initial concentric finger curl (60–75lbs for a set of five), but I like the added time under tension and acceleration provided by the pulldown. These are part of a short strength training circuit alongside squats, presses, deadlifts, and lat pulldowns. Volume is low: 1–3 top sets of 3–10 reps, depending on the exercise. The initial workouts gave me forearm DOMs for the first time in years. That's not a bad thing, just something to note—they're physiologically different enough from hangs and iso-curls to have caused soreness. So far I'd rate them pretty highly. I have been incorporating the eccentric after all, but with the unlevel edge have not felt any joint soreness (I would with a flat edge). They're basically all the good things I expected, none of the bad, and I plan to keep doing them. I agree they would probably be very good for specific endurance and strength-endurance training. |
Dan Schmidt wrote: Thanks for the helpful writeup! I recall reading about Bachar doing weighted barbell finger curls for the purpose of forearm hypertrophy. Allegedly he was operating under the assumption that increased musculature would provide a greater architecture in which to diffuse the pump on long routes. |
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People were writing about weighted finger curls for finger strength and endurance 5 years ago on Reddit. It's a method that goes back to the 90's. |
Karl Walters wrote: Reddit has, off and on, been interested in barbell finger curls, almost always was some disclaimer about it being "for hypertrophy but not direct transfer". This dismissive comment is much more representative of its attitude towards edge curls. |
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Could some post a video or (English) link to finger curls? I’m interested. |
Dan Schmidt wrote: Edge curls seem more full ROM than finger curls honestly. Whenever I did finger curls I felt like it was harder to keep the barbell on my finger at the bottom and involved more wrist flexion to not drop the damn thing. I cannot find the source now, but I recall reading a blog years ago that was basically a copy/paste of tons of esoteric training articles. I want to think it was an interview with Malcom Smith where he talked about doing finger curls with a sling to get ready for some sport climb that had no rests. Personally I don't think they'd help with reeling in crimps as I believe that is more technique relate, but what I've noticed is if I'm often climbing, hanging, and doing repeaters in the same basic DIP angle I end up getting some DIP soreness. A different ROM and position would likely alleviate that. Someone like myself, who is naturally a noodle, might also benefit from some forearm hypertrophy too and I don't think just doing repeaters would be quite as effective as finger curls. I've done many 6/10 cycles and my forearms don't seem to measure any larger from those at least. |
Karl Walters wrote: This is what I would like to know. Does forearm hypertrophy alleviate pump? |
Karl Walters wrote: Same, barbell / dumbbell finger curls felt impossible to actually roll into the fingertips without risking losing the weight. Edge curls are much more practical.
I think I remember the Malcom Smith stuff. More recently I saw something from Jonathan Siegrist saying "you need to actively grip, not just hang on", which is exactly how I feel about yielding vs. overcoming or concentric training. An elite Bay Area boulderer gave me that same feedback a long time ago when I first got into hanging, and I wish I'd taken him seriously rather than listening to everything from or inspired by the Rock Climber's Training Manual.
Strength training is just about increasing your capacities and capabilities, and in that sense having a greater ability to control your hand position inherently "transfers" to reeling in crimps. It just might not be relevant to individual climbers for whom that specific, isolated ability is never or very rarely demanded by the climbing or (as you said) alternative techniques provide an easier workaround. (The compensating technique that came to my mind is pulling in harder with the lower hand, bringing the hips in and weighting the feet more, thus unweighting the latched hand so it can be repositioned. But even that lower pull-in benefits from increased hand strength, obviously.) But it's beside the point because (1) some amount of strength training is always warranted, and (2) any effective strength program should increase the reel-in ability among others. The advantage to edge-curls might be (speculating here) that they overcome the joint angle-specificity limitation of isometrics. In a few years, I could see it being common to combine mostly edge-curls with some angle-specific overcoming isometrics, similarly to how lifters integrate pauses, partials, and other variations to improve weak spots in their primary lifts.
I switched to an unlevel edge for a similar reason—it basically eliminated my PIP joint soreness and allowed me to climb more at higher intensities. I personally think that if you're climbing enough, which is already very taxing on the joints, you should do everything possible to minimize torque and pressure on the finger joints off-the-wall. This would also help preserve hand/finger mobility, which I think is a hugely underrated advantage over the long term.
FWIW I've seen some evidence (O2 saturation/desaturation) that muscle activation is wildly lower in yielding-style exercises than overcoming- or concentric exercises. That and my own experimentation with setups for critical force testing lead me to believe yielding-style methods are strictly worse for off-wall endurance/strength-endurance training, and I'd guess the same is true for hypertrophy.
I could take a video next time I'm in the gym if you're really keen. But the basic idea behind edge curls is really simple: load up an edge (I use a lat pulldown machine with the unlevel edge), grip it open-handed, curl that into a crimp, open back up, and repeat. I also combine them with a one-arm pulldown because it seems practical (adds acceleration / time under tension) but :shrug:. People also do "finger curls" with a barbell or dumbbell. I never got into those just because they didn't seem useful, relevant, or consistent (the weight slips out at the useful end range of motion). YMMV. |
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That would make sense that saturation is way lower I definitely would have thought as much at least. I've had stellar results for improving my anaerobic capacity and aerobic capacity using these methods so I just stick to them while I wait for newer alternatives to bare fruit over time. I'd like to get a Tindeq some day and do a critical force test and try overcoming isos repeaters, but right now it's at the absolute bottom of my climbing priority list. I'm bad at using quotes on my phone so forgive me. I was lucky that I've always done the cue of curling the fingers into the hold before initiating even a normal hang. It pragmatically made sense to me and in retrospect seems like the appropriate type of isometric. I asked a few climbers and coaches early on and they acted as if the idea of trying to curl into the edge before hanging was common sense, but in retrospect I've not actually seen it called out in the endless amount of hangboarding tutorials. Of course I'm still in the camp of people who find standard hangboard protocols useful and have had lot of success from sparing use of the campus board, which is more ridiculed than just about anything in the C4HP camp. Strength training always makes sense in sports. I'd trust someone else that's smart such as yourself can figure out their dosages and whatnot. I'd imagine the relative strength needed to build capacity is pretty low and would come quick. I was thinking about the last time I had to do this on rock and it was the right hand in the big cross on Vanishing point. It's really easy to hit lower, which isn't positive, then reel into a full. The left foot and left hand are really good and using the lower left hand to unweight and get into the full was the pattern I was thinking of. Very easy to practice. I have always looked for movement based ways to make climbs easier and this specific example has actually come into play on all of the hardest crimp climbs I've done. Unfortunately if someone hasn't developed that skill there's a million ways to do it. Definitely a good way to minimize torque and stress to the joints as you're rarely ever in a position on rock where you cannot use body position to remove some weight from a hand provided the position is ideal. Watching someone do both The Nest and Sleepwalker in person I was surprised that they were able to hit and adjust each hold and reel in their finger position as the grade and style would make that level of control seem impossible. Best of luck in your quest! Always interesting seeing all the methods people are coming up with these days. Having forgone the Gram I am not up to date with what the newest training protocol from C4HP is these days. |
Edge-curls aren't a C4HP thing, just FYI. He's big on the isometric "curls", but that's not what this thread is about. |
