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What Are Your Top Rock Climbing Destinations in North America That All Climbers Should Try to Visit?
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I like the list. My main feedback is that something is lost when separating the categories out. There are some areas where the synergy between different styles elevates an area above what one particular style offers. For instance, City of Rocks has some good sport climbing and some good trad climbing. But when you put them together, it's really quite a great destination. Same with Tahoe. I actually don't think any particular Tahoe sport area is all that great; the quality and quantity at any particular crag really pale in comparison to the New, the Red, or Ten Sleep. And the areas are spread out to the point where you can't really hit, say, Big Chief and the Emeralds in the same day. But you combine the sport areas (Big Chief, Emeralds/Bowman, Mayhem, Star) with the trad areas, which are also excellent but also spread out (Leap, Spires, Loaf, Eagle, Donner [you can also include Cal Dome in Tahoe; it's right off 88])), plus the bouldering, which also spread out but very good, then you have a region with a TON to do in a 1-2 hour radius. I think a few other areas fall into this 1-2 hour radius multi-style category (without maybe being world class in any one):
I also think that St. George/Arizona Strip/VRG limestone deserves an honorable mention for sport. It's a bit spread out, but quite good. Last, I would consider breaking out "alpine" areas from "trad" areas. I think of short-approach trad climbing (even long routes) as just a different sport than routes where you have to backpack to the climb. Then you can have a separate category that includes some of the best that North America has to offer:
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Glowering wrote: I really disagree with the consideration of number of climbs as the most important metric for a road trip destination. It's actually pretty far down the list. For a road trip destination, you don't actually need 1000+ routes - you can't climb that many routes in actrip anyway. Factors like quality, uniqueness, and visitor logistics matter far more than number of climbs. Some of the best road trip destinations are those that have a smaller number of climbs, but consistently high quality, packed close together, and with something unique to offer. These places are great since you don't have to sort out which climbs are good. There may be only 300 routes, but they are all good, so just get on whatever. An example of this would be Wild Iris vs Clear Creek or Boulder Canyon. Clear Creek or Boulder Canyon have more routes, but Wild Iris has higher quality and a unique and special style (plus it's a nicer environment to visit). Wild Iris is clearly the "must visit" destination here. Identifying what is a good home/local crag is different. If you're staying somewhere 10 years, then quantity and variety becomes more important. For a destination I'd rather have 200 4-star routes than 2000 2-star routes. For a home crag it would be the opposite. Similar applies with spread out vs compact areas. For a destination it is nice if and area is really compact. You can show up for your two week trip and it's all right there in one zone, do you can quickly figure out the approaches and logistics, and get to know that area well in limited time. But for a long term home crag I prefer spread out area, which provides more conditions options though the year, and more variety so you don't get burned out on visiting the same cliff every weekend for 10 years. An example is the Buttermilks (great destination that is easy for visitors to navigate) vs the Tahoe region bouldering (an amazing home area, but a bit overwhelming to the visitor). |
Nkane 1 wrote: This kinda lines up with my comments above about great destinations vs great home-base regions.the areas you name (Tahoe, White Mountains, SLC, Flag) are all fantastic long term home base area with the quantity and variety to keep you busy for years. But they aren't necessarily the ultimate destinations to visit that would blow your mind with quality and uniqueness (like the Red or Indian Creek). I'd rather visit the Red (quality, uniqueness, density), but I'd rather live in SLC (variety and quantity within 1-2 hours; length of season). The uniqueness factor is also, IMO, underemphasized in what makes for a "must visit" destination. What really makes an area must-visit is not just a lot of great climbing, but also a type of climbing or experience that you can't find elsewhere. As an example, lets look at the two most popular northeast trad crags: Cathedral/Whitehorse vs the Gunks. You can debate which is a better crag (comes to personal preference in the end), but regardless of which is "better", there is a much stronger case that the Gunks is a "must visit". Cathedral, while great climbing, is also just kinda standard granite trad. It doesn't offer anything that Yosemite or Squamish doesn't have more/bigger/better. Whereas the Gunks offer something pretty unique and is the best representation of that style (though some NC climbers may dispute this). Similar uniqueness characteristics are what float the Red and Indian Creek to the top of the "must visit" list. The uniqueness factor counts against the Sierra Eastside sport climbing though. That region has a ton of good (though not necessarily great) sport climbing, amazing scenery, and great weather. But the climbing style itself is mostly just somewhat normal sport climbing. Its good, but its not super unique. Based on this, I think of it as a great place to climb, but not really a must visit (for sport climbing). |
Glowering wrote: Brush up on your history a bit. Back in the 70's - 80's, when people traveled to the US on climbing trips, there were 3 trad areas that were at the absolute top of the destinations list: Yosemite, Eldorado Canyon, and The Gunks. |
Marc801 C wrote: IMO this should be your starting point for making your list. Everything else is debatable. |
ddriver wrote: If it was still 1974, sure. But a lot has happened in the last 50 years and climbing has moved on. Of the former "big 3", only Yosemite remains a top international destination. Gunks and Eldo may make top-10 for a North America trad-destinations list, but that's debatable. |
JCM wrote: Ok. What we be your top 10 North American trad destinations that doesn't include at least one of the Gunks or Eldo--that are actually visited by traveling international trad climbers---if such specimens actually exist ( not counting some crusty old Brits)? |
Alan Rubin wrote: I'd probably include at least one of them, Eldo and/or the Gunks, on my top 10 trad destinations (in part for virtue of fame and historical significance), but near the bottom of the top 10. I'd probably put Gunks higher than Eldo. For sure neither crack the top 5, IMO. Top 4 is pretty solidly clinched by Yosemite, Moab/Creek, Squamish, Red Rock. Fifth spot I'd reluctantly give to JTree (the climbing is just OK, but great place to visit). After that it gets fuzzy and depends on how define the boundaries and priorities of the trad list. The trad list is a bit funny since you're comparing really disparate areas like JTree vs the Black Canyon. JTree is honestly closer to bouldering than it is to the Black, and the Black is basically alpine climbing in a hole in the ground. Which is "better" or more destination-worthy? There's also the question of whether alpine rock is included on the trad list. If so, somewhere like RMNP takes Eldo's spot. If you were to make a more narrowly defined list for easily-accessible moderate-grade 1-5 pitch trad cragging, Gunks and Eldo fare much better and get top-5. In any case, I don't think the former glory of those two areas guarantees a permanent place in the "top destination" pantheon. If we're going for a general cross-genre list (i.e. not just trad areas), no way Eldo and Gunks are top 10. |
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Nkane 1 I agree. I broke them out because it seemed like the trad vs sport climbers would want to go to different places. And some places are almost all trad and some are almost all sport. But most climbers I know do both. So it probably makes sense to just have one list for both. Great input JCM, exactly the type of dialog I was hoping to have with this thread. I listed areas according to number of climbs, but it wasn't my top criteria in picking the top 10, just an objective way to list them. I figured for example if there are over 1,000 climbs somewhere it's likely to be an expansive and popular area. But other factors may be more important as you pointed out. But something like The Incredible Hulk may be one of the bets climbing spots in the USA due to quality, length of routes, etc. but if there's only 20 routes and it's logistically challenging to get to I can't really consider it a top destination for typical climbers. But of course for someone looking for that experience it could be their #1 spot. Marc801 C, I grew up on the East Coast and moved to the West for the skiing, then I got into climbing. The mountains are so much more impressive in the west. So if you asked me after I moved out West but before I got into climbing, where all the best climbing sports were, I would've assumed they were 100% in the West. I've known the Gunks were one of the top trad destinations for years, and I've climbed there, but I'm still surprised with the amount of exposed rock out west that places in the East can compare, but they do. |
Glowering wrote: I agree that there is value to both the focused by-genre list, and also a general cross-genre list. Below is my attempt at a "one list to rule them all" top 10. The best areas vary by person, but for this one the target audience is someone of competent but not elite ability, who enjoys trad, sport, and bouldering equally. I've excluded backcountry/alpine areas from this list. 1. Yosemite - Since it's the epicenter. Even if you don't trad climb it's still worth it since the bouldering is so good also. 2. Squamish - Offers something for everyone, at very high quality. 3. Red River Gorge - America's most popular sport climbing. Note I didn't say best (NRG geeks would squawk if I did), but the RRG is just so fun and easy to love. 4. Indian Creek (+ Moab towers) - A unique and quintessentially American climbing style and destination. 5. Red Rock - Mainly for the multipitch trad, but the boulders are good too. The sport climbing is IMO just OK, but it sounds out the area nicely. 6. New River Gorge - Sport, single pitch trad, and bouldering, all at the highest quality. Bummer about the weather though. 7. Chattanooga - Particularly for the bouldering, but the sport and single pitch trad are good too, if you'd rather. 8. Bishop - Again, particularly for the bouldering, but there's great roped climbing around also. Landscape there is amazing. 9. El Potrero Chico - This one might be controversial since the rock is choss and the pitch-by-pitch quality is just OK, but those long routes are super fun, its a good winter escape, and an international adventure close to home. IMO a must-visit. (Note: if you climb 5.13, replace EPC with El Salto on this list.) 10. Joshua Tree - Reluctantly on the list since I don't love the climbing there, but it's a magical place to visit and any North American climber should make it there eventually. "Must visit" and "best climbing" aren't necessarily the same list Spots 11-15: Ten Sleep, Smith, Hueco, Bow Valley, City of Rocks. Oddly, of my three favorite places to climb (Squamish, Rifle, Tahoe), only Squamish made the list. Rifle is unique and great, but it's not for everyone. Tahoe is a fantastic climbing region with vast and varied climbing, but it's not a standout superlative in any one way to make it a must-visit road trip destination.
The way I think of it is that most of the choss washed away 200 million years ago, so any rock that's left is really good. |
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Only climbed east of the mississippi, france and new zealand,
Adirondacks (spider’s web is the best single pitch trad crag in the east, and if you aren’t psyched on 5.13 trad, pokeo, silver lake, moss cliff and avalanche pass will deliver, expect sandbags up to 5.11) Red river gorge (yes, the trad climbing here is amazing, and better than the sport, IMO the stiffest trad climbing grades in the world on average, and above 5.11) Gunks (below rrg and dacks is a hot take but there are many chipped climbs and on weekends you have to fight crowds that can be worse than adirondack black flies, softies exist but expect to feel sandbagged on many onsites before you get used to the style) White mountains NH (can’t beat the biggest big wall in the NE being roadside and whitehorse ledges, might be better than the gunks but I haven’t spent enough time there to make the judgement) MDI ME (acadia national park has a great assortment of classics from moderate sea cliffs to multipitch walls and a couple hard pitches to sprinkle in there) Areas I have not climbed at include Chattanooga, NRG, smokies, seneca rocks or your local choss pile. |
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I agree with everything on JCM’s list, and think it’s an excellent one, except I would put NRG above the Red and would also call the Red America’s best sport crag. |
John Byrnes wrote: Yikes. You are one seriously cancerous old fuck. Don't participate in threads like these if you really find them so offensive. |
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Nick, While I generally agree with your comments about East Coast climbing areas, I'm curious about your comment that there are "many chipped climbs" at the Gunks. I admit that I have been out of the Gunks scene for many years, but at least into the 12s, I am not aware that much, if any, purposeful chipping ( as opposed to 'piton scars' resulting from old practices) occurred---and would have very much been counter to the ethic of those involved in establishing or freeing those routes. Clearly you climb at a much harder level than I ever did, so you are more knowledgeable about what is involved in the newer routes, so it is indeed disappointing to hear that such 'tactics' apparently seem to have been employed in establishing some of those routes in the Gunks. But if they are indeed that commonly practiced there, it does make me wonder about the 'purity' of routes at other areas as well. You should definitely visit Chattanooga--a definite Eastern top-10 destination for both trad and sport. |
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I’ll echo the comment about chipping, Alan. I haven’t seen it. There was a scandal involving a few chipped boulders but I don’t think that has much to with the totality of available problems at any given level. As far as crowds, the Gunks suffer similarly to the other spots near urban areas. The only day I have ever tried to climb at Eldo I got shut out by arriving around ten as there was no parking. Had I arrived earlier or on a Tuesday instead of a Saturday it would have been different. Showing up late and expecting to jump on moderate 4 star classics is a dangerous game given the popularity of the sport. Is it possible to get Sixish on a Saturday at ten am? Money Grape? Given the lost and found requests at Red Rocks - I doubt it there. Is it reasonable to expect crowds at a “top ten” location unless it’s a “hidden gems” list? |
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So historically in the gunks, aggressive cleaning was the euphemism for chipping. Anywhere soft rock was found, people would go in with a chisel and remove it to make gear placements and holds, especially on some harder climbs in the 5.12+ range. The survival block at lost city has quite a few manufactured gear placements to make some climbs safe to lead (survival of the fittest has some), which is lower impact than bolting, but these climbs while protected by nuts and cams are not natural trad climbs, more like poor man’s sport climbing, however historic and great they are. On many routes this was done reasonably well and you can’t really tell that they are artificially exfoliated, but I think it adds to the suburban feel of the gunks, which detracts from the overall experience of traditional climbing. This was common practice in lieu of bolting at many east coast crags including pokeomoonshine, where it was done a bit more sparingly in the same era, usually just enough to fit an RP in a closed seam that would otherwise barely take a head. Does this detract from the pure quality of the climbing? Is it better than sport climbing? Not really and yes, but it is still an impure style of traditional climbing. I rank the rrg above the gunks because you can find real wilderness and great cracks in daniel boone national forest and PMRP, and I just like rrg sandstone better than the gunk’s conglomerate. Also most trad climbs in the red are way cleaner, less polished and super attractive, classics like rebar and rock wars stand up to any line at any other crag. the trad climbing ethic in the adirondacks is second to none, with many new cliffs and crags waiting to be discovered, on top of such natural and popular crags like the web whose hard climbs are unmatched anywhere in the east. I think if you are a trad climber, the adirondacks blows everything out of the water for your desires. Pure natural trad climbing up to 5.14a, some mixed bolted climbs, very low aid traffic on popular routes and questionable ethics isolated to a couple lines that got drilled then chopped, and the few artificial placements at pokeo. I hope this clears up what I mean by chipped, I don’t mean the climbs here were sculpted like many lines in sport climbing areas, or had holds improved or added like boxcar arete, and we don’t have holds glued on, but for pure traditional climbing ethics, you can be working really hard for a pure ascent of an impure route and not even know it. |
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One thing I particularly like about a thread like this is the descriptions, pros/cons, qualities, etc. of different areas. I didn't attempt to add any to my posts, because they were already long as is, but there's been some excellent info given. I've been to about 2/3 of the destinations many people list as their top places, and the descriptions really help me figure out which should be at the top of my list for the remaining 1/3. Thanks! |
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Agree about the northern RRG being some of the best traditional climbing in a healthy forest setting around these parts. That forest is just about top notch along with the awesome (quite sandbagged, especially at lower grades) traditional lines. And very few sport climbers infiltrate the northern gorge. Agree with your Daks comments too. |
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Thanks for clarifying Nick. As you acknowledge, what you described is not what most climbers consider to be 'chipping'. In fact, obviously depending upon the scale, "aggressive cleaning" --especially when it involves the removal of soft or loose rock, can be considered to be quite 'traditional'. Also, it appears that your initial comment that "many" routes are so affected is somewhat of an overstatement. Whatever the specifics, I don't feel that the fact that such 'alterations' occurred on a limited number of primarily very high end routes ( and if such modifications happened at the Gunks and Poko, it wouldn't at all be a 'shock' to learn that similar 'artistry' has happened on other very marginally protected hard climbs elsewhere in the world) should be a basis for downplaying the Gunks as a " destination ALL climbers" should visit. While clearly there are some climbers who travel specifically to climb high-end trad routes, they are a small minority, with the vast majority of 'travelers' seeking more 'modest' goals, and therefore wouldn't be impacted by the issues that you described. |
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Considering the vast majority of climbers in the gunks will go to lost city sparingly (if at all), I'd be curious to know more about chipping in the trapps/nears/etc. or on the classic hard test pieces. Obviously foops doesn't need any extra gear placements, nor does kansas city (though at some points it looks like a sport climb), Yellow wall, etc. I'm just curious whether an average gunks climber whose working in the 10's and 11's will actually end up on routes that are well known to be chipped. I'm not spending days on end projecting at lost city, so it being chipped does very little to make my climbing experience worse (though it obviously impacts others). |
