Locking QDs...overkill?

I'm considering building 2 quickdraws with lockers for sport TR setup, particularly with multi-pitch sport in mind. I'm thinking 2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends and 2 Edelrid Bulletproof screw lockers for the rope end to reduce friction/wear. Would one be "good enough"? Is the whole idea overkill, inspired prudence, or ??? Any contrary experiences?

Branon Rochelle wrote:

I'm considering building 2 quickdraws with lockers for sport TR setup, particularly with multi-pitch sport in mind. I'm thinking 2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends and 2 Edelrid Bulletproof screw lockers for the rope end to reduce friction/wear. Would one be "good enough"? Is the whole idea overkill, inspired prudence, or ??? Any contrary experiences?

 

Nope. Not over kill at all. I have two – some steel metoliud locking ds on one end and spirit lockers on the bolt side. One thing to keep in mind, though is if you are going to be using them for top rope, sport anchors, you want them longer than your others. They’re also great for repel extensions.

My go to single pitch sport anchor setup is 2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends, 1 Edelrid Bulletproof screw locker, and 1 Edelrid Bulletproof (non locker). It's nice to have one bottom carabiner be a non locker so if someone else wants to pull the rope and lead, they don't have to unlock a carabiner at the anchor before clipping, potentially while pumped. They would quickly clip the non locker, then can unlock and clip the other draw. This set up has 3/4 carabiners as lockers. Imo, this is the best possible sport anchor.

Not sure what you mean, or why you would use this setup for multi-pitch sport. You build a sling / quad / girth / rope anchor and belay your partner directly off the anchor. You don't use draws as an anchor for multi-pitch sport.

I have one for TR setups where I’m either gonna leave it up for a bunch of laps, or if I can’t see the anchor from the ground. I tend to think just one is sufficient, with a regular QD on the other bolt. Not totally “necessary,” but cheap piece of mind.

Gee Monet wrote:

My go to single pitch sport anchor setup is 2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends, 1 Edelrid Bulletproof screw locker, and 1 Edelrid Bulletproof (non locker). It's nice to have one bottom carabiner be a non locker so if someone else wants to pull the rope and lead, they don't have to unlock a carabiner at the anchor before clipping…Imo, this is the best possible sport anchor.

This.

Lockers on the bolt end are unnecessary, but may make you feel better.

I have used  two 7.5 feet of one inch webbing tied with water knot with 2 lockers racked as a alpine draw for this for a long time sometimes the bolts are in a good place and I don't extend sometimes I do extend. It works for me. I chose 7.5 feet because I buy the one inch webbing in 30 foot packages so that gets me two spare slings when they start looking bad I swap them.

Just to clarify I only carry these to sport/TR areas never on multipitch.

FrankPS wrote:

Lockers on the bolt end are unnecessary, but may make you feel better.

Not from what I've seen,  I'd say with some studs sticking out too far it's 50/50 honestly.  Any draw that moves too much/isn't  extended enough can easily come off a hanger. I don't own a locking draw but I do carry lockers.

M M wrote:

Not from what I've seen,  I'd say with some studs sticking out too far it's 50/50 honestly.  Any draw that moves too much/isn't  extended enough can easily come off a hanger. I don't own a locking draw but I do carry lockers.

We are talking about anchor draws, right? Hard to imagine an anchor draw coming off a hanger.

Gee Monet wrote:

My go to single pitch sport anchor setup is 2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends, 1 Edelrid Bulletproof screw locker, and 1 Edelrid Bulletproof (non locker). It's nice to have one bottom carabiner be a non locker so if someone else wants to pull the rope and lead, they don't have to unlock a carabiner at the anchor before clipping, potentially while pumped. They would quickly clip the non locker, then can unlock and clip the other draw. This set up has 3/4 carabiners as lockers. Imo, this is the best possible sport anchor.

Not sure what you mean, or why you would use this setup for multi-pitch sport. You build a sling / quad / girth / rope anchor and belay your partner directly off the anchor. You don't use draws as an anchor for multi-pitch sport.

Thanks. I was debating the 3/4 setup for exactly the reasons you noted.

For the multi-pitch angle, I was thinking this would work with an extra locker connecting the QDs to the belay device for the top belay. Normally, I just build one with a sling, but I thought this might simplify anchor building/cleanup for a less experienced partner. Something like this but with lockers:

FrankPS wrote:

We are talking about anchor draws, right? Hard to imagine an anchor draw coming off a hanger.

By 'anchor draw' are you referring to a locker draw setup similar to what I described? Metolius sells one specifically labeled thus.

Two quickdraws, opposite and opposed, with non-lockers on the rope-side has been working for decades across the planet. There are also many anchor-bolts/pro/routes/crags where two quickdraws are totally inappropriate as an anchor, using two lockers doesn't fix that. 

It is overkill to have TWO locking draws set up as a TR anchor *where appropriate*. Is two locking QD's detrimental? Mostly no, but it can be. If you have multiple people leading and pulling the rope between climbs, there's nothing to quickly clip at the end of a climb, a possible problem for someone that is gassed or at their limit. Solution? Only use one locking QD if you must use one at all. 

For anchors made with slings, cord, or extended ropes at least one locker rope-side is highly recommended. The potential for twisting and weird things to happen grows with more length in the anchor. 

Lockers are not necessary bolt side. 

I have two QD's set up with bulletproof bentgate biners rope-side for crags/routes where 2 QD's is the norm for anchors. 

I have a bulletproof bentgate and a bulletproof locking straightgate for when I'm building sling anchors. Both carabiners are the same size which maintains a large radius for the rope to run over. In my experience running TR's over a narrow radius or a single carabiner greatly diminishes the lifespan of a rope. 

Branon Rochelle wrote:

Thanks. I was debating the 3/4 setup for exactly the reasons you noted.

For the multi-pitch angle, I was thinking this would work with an extra locker connecting the QDs to the belay device for the top belay. Normally, I just build one with a sling, but I thought this might simplify anchor building/cleanup for a less experienced partner. Something like this but with lockers:

Those QD's should be under the chains to avoid mangling your carabiners if they are weighted strongly.  

I pretty much never use two QD's for multipitch anchors. You can, but it is almost always an inferior option. Use the rope if swinging leads and you don't need the entire rope length to get to the next anchor. Use a quad, use a girth x master point, use a traditional figure eight master point. All of those will give you more mobility, are easier to belay the second from the top, give you more options, and are more reliable. 

Branon Rochelle wrote:

Thanks. I was debating the 3/4 setup for exactly the reasons you noted.

For the multi-pitch angle, I was thinking this would work with an extra locker connecting the QDs to the belay device for the top belay. Normally, I just build one with a sling, but I thought this might simplify anchor building/cleanup for a less experienced partner. Something like this but with lockers:

In the situation shown here, you could effectively create the same system by just connecting the chains with a single locker, voila, master point.

Caveats being that your locker fits through the chains, and no one is gonna need them to rap while you’re at the station.

Branon Rochelle wrote:

2 Edelrid Pure Sliders for the hanger ends and 2 Edelrid Bulletproof screw lockers for the rope end

 

This is exactly what I use, I am very happy with the setup.  I don't always need to use the most minimally minimum gear for every job every time.

I consider myself very conservative with safety in a single pitch setting, and I’m perfectly fine with one locker draw and one non-locker. I would recommend that you get a locker draw with an HMS carabiner on the rope end. If you have two bulletproof d-shaped carabiner that are opposite and opposed they can pinch the rope and make it harder to move. A locker draw with and HMS carabiner is also a good rap extension.

FrankPS wrote:

We are talking about anchor draws, right? Hard to imagine an anchor draw coming off a hanger.

Oh shit, yeah, no need for lockers unless the TR is getting gang banged by a scout troop!

FrankPS wrote:

We are talking about anchor draws, right? Hard to imagine an anchor draw coming off a hanger.

I’ve actually had this happen on a single-pitch anchor as we pulled the rope for someone to re-lead the route. Obviously in that case it was fine, but it goes to show that it’s possible. I like to use a single locker draw anytime I expect lots of TR hangdogging.

I made two draws with bulletproof lockers on each end. I originally made them for anchor draws but lately use them for the first two bolts. Sometimes the first bolt is after a lengthy scramble. Irrational, maybe. Like the fat rope i bought - makes me feel good. 

If I am bringing new people out for TRing use the method where you just put a carabiner in the chains and feed the rope through.