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Walkie-Talkie App for Offline Communication - Multi-Pitching

Original Post
Gui Vendemiatti · · Santa Cruz, CA · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 25

Does anyone out here use an offline chatting application that can transmit messages instantaneously without internet (over Bluetooth or Wi-Fi Direct)? If so, what app?

I've got walkie talkies too (Motorola Talkabout) but in a lightweight, hard multi-pitch context I'd really love to just bring my phone and nothing else. I'm never more than like 57 meters from my partner and I think in 2024 there should be some technology that can reach that far without internet... I've seen a few but not sure what folks are using in the climbing world.

I've got an iPhone 13 and ideally looking for an app that I can also activate via voice and send a message without ever touching my phone. Would totally pay for such a thing by the way.

WHAM . · · Utah · Joined Mar 2013 · Points: 1

There is one for Android called slide2talk but I've never used it on wifi direct, only through a router

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

These look pretty good, but I've never used them: And expensive.

https://www.okmilo.com/en-us/

Jim Urbec · · Sevierville, TN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 61
FrankPS wrote:

These look pretty good, but I've never used them: And expensive.

https://www.okmilo.com/en-us/

600m/2000ft depending on terrain.... read that as with clear line of sight you'll see those numbers.  in complex rough terrian not so much. 

there have been a couple of iterations of these style of devices, seems to be marketed towards skiers.  the last one I saw, you mounted on your helmet.  didn't last long so that may be a testament to it's market acceptation.

I do a lot of work with Mil-Spec Mesh MANET radios (Sylvus, Persistent, Trellis) you get what you pay for in this space..  Gotenna is probably the best consumer grade stuff out there for no cell/cell saturated environment.   Beartooth was the other but not sure if it's available anymore.

Big B · · Reno, NV · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 1

rocky talkies(or BCA eq.) is what skiers/boarders tend to use. lots of clumbers use them as well

Gui Vendemiatti · · Santa Cruz, CA · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 25

Thanks for the responses thus far. The okmilo is a great suggestion, but I'm going to have to save up for years for that sort of thing. I don't need anything too fancy - when I said "willing to pay", I was more thinking of an app with a subscription or an upfront cost (under $30). Like I said, I have walkie talkies and they work fine, I just think they're clunky and I'd really rather an app on my phone that I'm already bringing up for photos.

Did more research - seems like Wi-Fi Direct technology available on Androids has higher range than Bluetooth communication iPhones are restricted to. Is this accurate? Bluetooth communication can get spotty after like 30 meters (need to test out Bridgefy app on Apple IOS more but this is what I've read). Has anyone tested an app like Briar/Slide2Talk on two Androids? Can it reach the 60 meters?

The way I see it - if Samsung comes out with a phone with two-way satellite communications capability AND if you can use two androids to send voice messages with no data connection 60 meters apart then all climbers should get the next Droid!

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
Gui Vendemiatti wrote:

Thanks for the responses thus far. The okmilo is a great suggestion, but I'm going to have to save up for years for that sort of thing. I don't need anything too fancy - when I said "willing to pay", I was more thinking of an app with a subscription or an upfront cost (under $30). Like I said, I have walkie talkies and they work fine, I just think they're clunky and I'd really rather an app on my phone that I'm already bringing up for photos.

Did more research - seems like Wi-Fi Direct technology available on Androids has higher range than Bluetooth communication iPhones are restricted to. Is this accurate? Bluetooth communication can get spotty after like 30 meters (need to test out Bridgefy app on Apple IOS more but this is what I've read). Has anyone tested an app like Briar on two Androids? Can it reach the 60 meters?

The way I see it - if Samsung comes out with a phone with two-way satellite communications capability AND if you can use two androids to send voice messages with no data connection 60 meters apart then all climbers should get the next Droid!

Wifi is just a radio signal anyway. It is badly affected by any obstruction in the way, ie. rock. It's going to be subject to worse limitations than just a cheap walkie. Save yourself the headache and just use walkie talkies. The two-way satellite tech that currently exists doesn't do well in vertical terrain because, by definition, your view of the sky is highly obstructed. 

Flex · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 1,025

Here’s another device that is marketed towards group communication between motorcycle riders. Connects via Bluetooth.

https://www.cardosystems.com/

Andy Shoemaker · · Bremerton WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 70

Maybe this tech will soon fill the gap between 2-way radios and cell comms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3FXej9fqIk&t=212s

Jim Urbec · · Sevierville, TN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 61
Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Maybe this tech will soon fill the gap between 2-way radios and cell comms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3FXej9fqIk&t=212s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQE_rZvkcWA - probably a better video. LoRa is a great signal protocol but probably not super good for heavy comms. more of the long range sensor signally

Andy Shoemaker · · Bremerton WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 70
Jim Urbec wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQE_rZvkcWA - probably a better video. LoRa is a great signal protocol but probably not super good for heavy comms. more of the long range sensor signally

I appreciate the link Jim.  I'm totally unfamiliar with this tech so excuse my lack of knowledge.  

What do you mean not great for "heavy comms"?  

I'm envisioning multipitch alpine usage- sending one or two phrases every 20 minutes or something.  I imagine a digital voice signal is data intensive- so better would be app on the phone always listening, that converts speech to text and sends it to the LoRa device clipped to your harness or helmet (for better range).  Same thing in reverse on the other end.  Seems like it would be pretty small amounts of info, from my uninformed perspective.  It might make it feel like you are climbing with Siri.... Could be a deal breaker.

Jim Urbec · · Sevierville, TN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 61
Andy Shoemaker wrote:

I appreciate the link Jim.  I'm totally unfamiliar with this tech so excuse my lack of knowledge.  

What do you mean not great for "heavy comms"?  

I'm envisioning multipitch alpine usage- sending one or two phrases every 20 minutes or something.  I imagine a digital voice signal is data intensive- so better would be app on the phone always listening, that converts speech to text and sends it to the LoRa device clipped to your harness or helmet (for better range).  Same thing in reverse on the other end.  Seems like it would be pretty small amounts of info, from my uninformed perspective.  It might make it feel like you are climbing with Siri.... Could be a deal breaker.

The applications I've seen LoRa used for were associated with alert notifications (VIP alert to security detail -  move an small object on a table and the dudes with guns rush in) or tracking of trainees on a land nav course (just position location).  so discreet small packets of data.  low-end of comms would be text, mid-voice, heavy-real time video.  LoRa will work on the low end similar to Gotenna. but just like GoTenna you'll probably never push voice though it.

So I understand the concept and desire to want to use an app instead of a radio. But instead of just hitting a PTT button you may be looking at having to manipulate a screen and text. Efficiency wise which is going to be easier? all the little helmet systems would be cool, but they just don't have the range for this application.

and yes the VIP alert thing was a real project we worked for about 3 months....until DISA screwed the contracting aspect..lol

Andy Shoemaker · · Bremerton WA · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 70
Jim Urbec wrote:

The applications I've seen LoRa used for were associated with alert notifications (VIP alert to security detail -  move an small object on a table and the dudes with guns rush in) or tracking of trainees on a land nav course (just position location).  so discreet small packets of data.  low-end of comms would be text, mid-voice, heavy-real time video.  LoRa will work on the low end similar to Gotenna. but just like GoTenna you'll probably never push voice though it.

So I understand the concept and desire to want to use an app instead of a radio. But instead of just hitting a PTT button you may be looking at having to manipulate a screen and text. Efficiency wise which is going to be easier? all the little helmet systems would be cool, but they just don't have the range for this application.

and yes the VIP alert thing was a real project we worked for about 3 months....until DISA screwed the contracting aspect..lol

Thanks for the insider insight Jim.

It seems like someone with solid coding skills could make this happen.  We already have apps that listen continuously (hey siri) without physical input, let alone keying a mic.  We have speech to text to speech apps.  And we have a way for the cell phone to communicate with the LoRa device.  And we are only talking about 60m distance over rugged terrain which seems well within the realm.  

The packets could even be preset messages, text to speech on the receiving end (belay is on, i'm cruxing- watch me, is that rope drag or are you napping, etc), reducing the size of the data being exchanged. All of that is input into the phone app prior to heading out.

No one is offering this now but it seems like it's realistic.  Don't know if the pricing works.  Or if there is some other obvious flaw in this logic. 

I agree- currently I'll stick with my 2-way radio + phone + Inreach. Seems like the Inreach will be obsolete first anyway with phone's now having basic sat comm capabilities. And those haven't begun utilizing Starlink etc if my understand is correct. But that's another good reason to max out the capabilities of the smartphone with the integration of a LoRa system. Maybe the

Gui Vendemiatti · · Santa Cruz, CA · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 25
Jim Urbec wrote:

The applications I've seen LoRa used for were associated with alert notifications (VIP alert to security detail -  move an small object on a table and the dudes with guns rush in) or tracking of trainees on a land nav course (just position location).  so discreet small packets of data.  low-end of comms would be text, mid-voice, heavy-real time video.  LoRa will work on the low end similar to Gotenna. but just like GoTenna you'll probably never push voice though it.

So I understand the concept and desire to want to use an app instead of a radio. But instead of just hitting a PTT button you may be looking at having to manipulate a screen and text. Efficiency wise which is going to be easier? all the little helmet systems would be cool, but they just don't have the range for this application.

and yes the VIP alert thing was a real project we worked for about 3 months....until DISA screwed the contracting aspect..lol

Am I right in understanding that without a LoRA device, one couldn't send small packets up to 70 meters? As Andy mentioned, sufficient communications to me would resemble preset messages for when everything is fine such as "belay off" and typed text messages for when weird shit happens such "giant spider up in this crack, i'm waiting for it to move give me some time". What do you make of the Wi-Fi direct technology available on Androids? Not sufficiently reliable? (sorry don't have one and can't figure out how it works exactly).

Jim Urbec · · Sevierville, TN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 61
Gui Vendemiatti wrote:

Am I right in understanding that without a LoRA device, one couldn't send small packets up to 70 meters? As Andy mentioned, sufficient communications to me would resemble preset messages for when everything is fine such as "belay off" and typed text messages for when weird shit happens such "giant spider up in this crack, i'm waiting for it to move give me some time". What do you make of the Wi-Fi direct technology available on Androids? Not sufficiently reliable? (sorry don't have one and can't figure out how it works exactly).

ok.... All I've saying about LoRa is that it has pretty good range (way more that 70m and better than bluetooth over distant especially with walls or trees involved) however you won't (or currently can't) do much more than small discreet data packets.  I don't know if preset text messages fall into that category or not...maybe software/application level defined simialr to GoTenna

there's reason why police, PSD, troops engaged in direct combat roles usually default to PTT and voice.  high stress fast moving environments means decreased ability for execute complex tasks like manipulating a smart phone/EUD (end user device running ATAK)..... so what happens if a fun day of mutli-pitch takes a turn?  Hell I just saw Rockie Talkie started posting a consolidated list of rescue/community freqs for specific areas.  that's a pretty good option for a PACE plan if available. 

No Idea on wifi direct - this conversation started in MESH stuff the only major mil radio that I know using 802.11 is Persistent systems.  Good kit, but there are better especially when you get into very complex terrain ala subterranean tunnels, the hold s of ships..  and the better ones are all using propriety freqs and schemes     

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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