Some Hot Takes on Chalk

tom donnelly wrote:

Victor Creazzi wrote:  "We tried that in the 80s. Many shades were needed to match the rock and the needed shades varied from hold to hold. On top of that, the chalk sucked."

It still seems like a better mix mix would work.  It doesn't have to match that well, only greyish and rustyish color would cover most needs.  People often pay more for "premium" chalk these days.

Also, even if you don't use chalk, you are generally benefiting from previous chalkers who keep the holds from being as greasy.

✅ Oh, yes, the irresponsible non-chalkers argument!

We gotta get somebody advocating drying the hands a bit on locally sourced dried moss instead of chalking and we got us a complete chalk thread, folks!

Redacted Redactberg wrote:

Bias: i dont use chalk because my hands dont sweat.

Following David on slab climbs is an interesting experience; you never know which way he went.

I am so far on the other side of the sweaty spectrum that all of these designated climbs would effectively be off limits for me, regardless of the grade. I was once onsight soloing Sunnyside Bench to approach something else and left my chalkbag in my pack. But I literally fell of the 5.4 crux and couldn't get up it without chalk, and pathetically had to fish it out out of my pack before continuing on. So I'm selfishly against any proposals to limit chalk, regardless of how much it affects aesthetics

I know this is a non-serious thread, but here's a somewhat serious take:

Chalk, while ugly when splattered all over a wall, doesn't always show the easiest path. I've climbed several routes where what looked like a huge jug from the ground but turned out to be a polished sloper was caked in chalk.

I only use it in humid conditions or when I'm feeling stressed on a hard move, but I try not to judge. However, I do get a kick out of the people who turn their hands flour-white before they even start up and touch actual rock.

tom donnelly wrote:

Also, even if you don't use chalk, you are generally benefiting from previous chalkers who keep the holds from being as greasy.

Lol maybe, but on the other hand, in my experience it seems the chalk actually binds the grease to the wall. Midnight lightning I think might be demonstrative. That climb isnt just polished, its exuding grease. I bet if no chalk was used on it, it wouldnt be so greasy. In any case, that thing needs a firehose deep wash.

Redacted Redactberg wrote:

...... In any case, that thing needs a firehose deep wash.

a cordless Waterpik helps get those tough to reach spots

Don't forget the wireless fan!

Redacted Redactberg wrote:

Lol maybe, but on the other hand, in my experience it seems the chalk actually binds the grease to the wall. Midnight lightning I think might be demonstrative. That climb isnt just polished, its exuding grease. I bet if no chalk was used on it, it wouldnt be so greasy. In any case, that thing needs a firehose deep wash.

Apparently you don't understand how rock gets polished. You could scrub well used granite boulders with muriatic acid and a power washer and the features would still be polished. 

Redacted Redactberg wrote:

Lol maybe, but on the other hand, in my experience it seems the chalk actually binds the grease to the wall. Midnight lightning I think might be demonstrative. That climb isnt just polished, its exuding grease. I bet if no chalk was used on it, it wouldnt be so greasy. In any case, that thing needs a firehose deep wash.

I'm pretty sure that is from pof not chalk

Not Trevor wrote:

Where do we stand on the ugly ass trails leading to the base of the climb? 

Im a climber. i hike to climb, not climb to hike ;)

Well, I would argue that bolts are actually what ruins a true onsight.

Wait, you didnt explain, lmao how can you even send a line if you don't know what at least the approximate line is?

 I actually record my climbs as two full letter grades harder if the route was previously done with a chalked ascent.

Bruh….

M M wrote:

Apparently you don't understand how rock gets polished. You could scrub well used granite boulders with muriatic acid and a power washer and the features would still be polished. 

Was referring more so to the grease, not the polish. There’s polished holds, and then there are greasy holds, and then there are the holds on midnight lightning.

Redacted Redactberg wrote:

Im a climber. i hike to climb, not climb to hike ;)

Idk man, those trails, covered in human and dog shit are far more hideous (and damaging) than any chalk on the wall

Wait, you didnt explain, lmao how can you even send a line if you don't know what at least the approximate line is?

Well, I would imagine it’s the same logic that makes a chalked route unable to be onsighted. Where’s your imagination bro!

Bruh….

Chalk is anti-aid.

"I bet if no chalk was used on it, it wouldnt be so greasy. "

I disagree.  The non-soluble mixture of body oils and skin cells is what makes the holds greasy.  Chalk is soluble, and mixing it in with the human grease makes the grease more easily removed.

tom donnelly wrote:

"I bet if no chalk was used on it, it wouldnt be so greasy. "

I disagree.  The non-soluble mixture of body oils and skin cells is what makes the holds greasy.  Chalk is soluble, and mixing it in with the human grease makes the grease more easily removed.

I disagree. Additionally, chalk (calcium carbonate) is not soluble. This is one reason why caking wet holds with chalk doesn’t help anything. See the start holds of Scar Tissue for reference. 

Not Not MP Admin wrote:

Chalk (calcium carbonate) is not soluble. Assuming you mean water soluble.

I would also beg anyone who thinks chalk doesn’t compound to the “grease factor” to touch the start holds of Scar Tissue

Well, the magnesium carbonate may not be very soluble,  but it still does not stick to the rock like human grease.  So it acts as an inert powder to make the grease more easily removed.

tom donnelly wrote:

Well, the magnesium carbonate may not be very soluble, but it still does not stick to the rock like human grease.  So it acts as an inert powder to make the grease more easily removed.

I mean I agree that individually chalk is easier to remove than human grease, but I’m not convinced that the two make some sort of solution that is somehow significantly easier to remove due to the addition of chalk. Whatever process most easily removes “grease“ on its own would still apply whether or not chalk is present. Chalk doesn’t magically make rock easier to clean, I would argue the opposite. That’s the only point I’m trying to convey to you.   

I often enjoy climbing for the sake of climbing (spiritual climber yada yada yada) and this especially the case when I am outside on beutiful rocks or trad climbing. I haven't done many climbs that are to a summit but those are also great examples.  It can be hard to see these routes when they are caked with Chalk and less asthetic 

That being said, climb on Bassalt in New Mexico in June or July and you notice that you need it.  I also vividly remember a time when I was working on a project in the gym, a big dyno to these sloper volume things.  I kept trying and was falling, and then my partner was like chalk up, I did, and then I stuck the move.  Annecdotally, it's fair to say that it can add friction.  I don't think anyone disagrees with that.  I tend to think that I am in 75% percentile on the sweat. There are definitely people who sweat more, but my hands are wet typing this in my dorm room (62 degrees F).  

Where does that leave us, I don't know.  I do think there are some areas that better suit themselves to needing chalk bans, especially where the non climbing population is very close to the rock.  Arches comes to mind, and climbers should follow these ethics for all the obvious reasons.  

That being said, if you're high on the dawn wall or in the NRG and you're climbing hard and your marks won't be visible to nonclimbers, you are probably fine.  That being said I think the average climber does use to much chalk especially while bouldering.  Its a complicated problem if it is a problem at all, and there is not a one size fits all solutiion.  I hope that helps, thats my $0.02

Bailey Nicholson wrote:

That being said, climb on Bassalt in New Mexico in June or July and you notice that you need it.  I also vividly remember a time when I was working on a project in the gym, a big dyno to these sloper volume things.  I kept trying and was falling, and then my partner was like chalk up, I did, and then I stuck the move.  Annecdotally, it's fair to say that it can add friction.  I don't think anyone disagrees with that. I tend to think that I am in 75% percentile on the sweat. There are definitely people who sweat more, but my hands are wet typing this in my dorm room (62 degrees F).

There was a thread a bit ago talking about coefficient and friction and chalk compared to wet hands/rock. I believe a study was linked that actually showed no measurable gain in friction with the addition of chalk. I might be wrong, but I remember being a little surprised. Long story short, someone will always disagree.

I stopped using chalk in 2011. I am not part of the problem.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

There was a thread a bit ago talking about coefficient and friction and chalk compared to wet hands/rock. I believe a study was linked that actually showed no measurable gain in friction with the addition of chalk. I might be wrong, but I remember being a little surprised. Long story short, someone will always disagree.

Yeah, I am not pretending to have the science on everything, I was merely explaining one anecdotal experience that really seemed to benefit.  Maybe this should be a case of just because we always have doesn't mean we still should.  As a future hopeful professional researcher, I would be curious about the nature of that study. I would be curious what the top end of climbers do/ think.   With the obvious caveat that what they might consider a moderate multi pitch might be at or above the limit of us mere mortals.  And to be clear if prompted or i become convicned it doesnt help my climbing I am very open to change.  

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

There was a thread a bit ago talking about coefficient and friction and chalk compared to wet hands/rock. I believe a study was linked that actually showed no measurable gain in friction with the addition of chalk. I might be wrong, but I remember being a little surprised. Long story short, someone will always disagree.

Chalk doesn't add friction, it dries your hands...