Backing up Grigri rappels

I was wondering if you could use an autoblock knot or prusik knot to backup rappels using a grigri.

I've learned how to rappel using an ATC, and that backing up your rappel is a very important task. Would I be able to back up the grigri the same way as I would back up an ATC?

Link to the backup I am talking about: https://www.theclimbingguy.com/how-to-backup-a-rappel/

From Andy Kirkpatrick’s book “Down” :

“The idea of putting a backup hitch below an ABBD (assisted braking belay device) might sound a bit daft if all you have to do is let go of the handle and the ABBD will lock. But there are many instances when this might be a good idea, such as when a less experienced climber is using one. The reason for this is that most ABBD have a braking method like a dead man’s handle, in that when you let go it locks.

The problem is when someone thinks they’re falling to their deaths, instead of letting go, the double down and pull harder…

Having a back up hitch reduces this risk. A second factor is when only using an ABBD, Al your eggs are in one basket, and I know of at least one case where a climber has leaned back on a grigri and fell to his death, the grigri attached to his rope, but not to him”

I would say do it the same way you do it with a tube device if your goal is safety.

heres some additional ways to add friction to a rappel when using a grigri if you want such a thing. Though I think most find a grigri lever and a backup like a prusik or an auto lock to be sufficient control of descent speed.

Connor Hale wrote:

heres some additional ways to add friction to a rappel when using a grigri if you want such a thing. Though I think most find a grigri lever and a backup like a prusik or an auto lock to be sufficient control of descent speed.

Thanks for the info! Would you extend the Grigri just like you would do with an ATC if you were to add a backup third hand to it then??

Daniel, just wondering, have you seen someone rappel on a grigri and are you aware of the differences with a grigri compared to a tube device like an ATC, primarily that the rope must either be fixed if you are going to rappel off it one person at a time, or that you must simul-rappel meaning one person on each strand of the rope, both going down together to counterweight each other, which I would say is an advanced technique? If not, I think it is worth either sticking to a tube device since they are quite easy to use and hard to mess up, or maybe taking a more advanced self rescue class where I imagine they go over things like that.

Regarding extending a grigri, I personally extend for ergonomics not so much function as I find it easier to control if the device is a little higher than my waist. All the talk I have ever heard about extending your rappel is to more easily transition from rappelling to ascending in a self rescue scenario. I am unqualified to answer if you should or should not as I am not familiar with rescue techniques (yet), maybe another mountainproject user can answer though.

Backing up a gri gri is not something I would do. If you want more control, the ferino like shown is a nice purpose made biner, or just a second carabiner is standard in rescue training.
If you're worried about a beginner panic pulling the gri gri, giving them a prusik or VT to tend while rapelling is not something that IMO would be helpful.

Just just give them a firemans from below, tie catastrophe knots in the rap line every so often, lower the beginner the pitch or pitches, or use an anti panic capable device like the gri gri +. All better options than using a prusik

Connor Hale wrote:

Daniel, just wondering, have you seen someone rappel on a grigri and are you aware of the differences with a grigri compared to a tube device like an ATC, primarily that the rope must either be fixed if you are going to rappel off it one person at a time, or that you must simul-rappel meaning one person on each strand of the rope, both going down together to counterweight each other, which I would say is an advanced technique? If not, I think it is worth either sticking to a tube device since they are quite easy to use and hard to mess up, or maybe taking a more advanced self rescue class where I imagine they go over things like that.

Regarding extending a grigri, I personally extend for ergonomics not so much function as I find it easier to control if the device is a little higher than my waist. All the talk I have ever heard about extending your rappel is to more easily transition from rappelling to ascending in a self rescue scenario. I am unqualified to answer if you should or should not as I am not familiar with rescue techniques (yet), maybe another mountainproject user can answer though.

Yeah, I haven't seen it in person, but I saw that you have to fix the rope with a carabiner through a couple of videos. I don't have much experience in rappelling in general and just wanted to gain some knowledge in some different methods since I already have a grigri as well. I was mainly curious if there should be any backup safety measures when using the grigri as a rappel device in single-pitch situations.

I don't use a friction hitch under a grigri and don't know anyone who does.

Connor Hale wrote:

… the rope must either be fixed if you are going to rappel off it one person at a time, or that you must simul-rappel …

fixed or biner blocked. BB is quite standard for grigri rappels.

I think this thread can be answered most succinctly by don’t reinvent the wheel 

Yes, it can be a thing to add a friction hitch below a gri gri.  I’ve done it numerous times.  A couple conditions where it might be warranted; skinny rope that is soaking wet, skinny rope with a really heavy load (rescue situations or a haulbag), a very worn out gri gri and a slippery rope.  Obviously these scenarios are very rare amongst 99% of users.  Simply adding friction like the above examples is often an easier solution though.  Sorta one of those techniques that if you have to ask about it, it probably isn’t for you.

Daniel Jeun wrote:

Would you extend the Grigri just like you would do with an ATC if you were to add a backup third hand to it then??

Yes. If you are using a friction hitch as a backup below a rappel device, you must ensure that your weight will come fully onto the friction hitch before the device runs into the hitch.

If the device runs into the top of the hitch, it will just push the hitch down the rope and the hitch will never catch to save you.

Connor Hale wrote:

heres some additional ways to add friction to a rappel when using a grigri if you want such a thing. Though I think most find a grigri lever and a backup like a prusik or an auto lock to be sufficient control of descent speed.

Interesting info here. I've recently bought both "Down" and "On the Line", and haven't gotten here yet. I started looking into quick/easy/simple ways to backup/tie off a grigri for purposes of going hands free while cleaning newly bolted lines, and came to Fig. 47 above as the best method, as it requires very little more time to set up and tear down to move down a few feet and repeat the process. Fig. 45 & 46  are instructive too, and I see now how someone invented the freino.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Just just give them a firemans from below, tie catastrophe knots in the rap line every so often, lower the beginner the pitch or pitches, or use an anti panic capable device like the gri gri +. All better options than using a prusik

To be clear, you're referring to a fireman's for a non-GriGri rappel, correct? There's been recent guidance that a loaded GriGri can fail when the rope is loaded from below, confirmed by Petzl

https://www.instagram.com/p/C04pCV3h3gB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

Natalie Blackburn wrote:

I started looking into quick/easy/simple ways to backup/tie off a grigri for purposes of going hands free while cleaning newly bolted lines, and came to Fig. 47 above as the best method,

None of those pictures “tie off” the gri gri. They add additional friction when rappelling

For completion sake, here’s the “Down” page on tying off a grigri

Peter Y wrote:

To be clear, you're referring to a fireman's for a non-GriGri rappel, correct? There's been recent guidance that a loaded GriGri can fail when the rope is loaded from below, confirmed by Petzl

https://www.instagram.com/p/C04pCV3h3gB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

Fair enough, and a good point to bring up. This is one that has been discussed in climbing/rigging circles I am am linked. Its is only for  the GG+ and new GG's from 2019

from petzl: With the GRIGRI + from 2017 and on, and the GRIGRI from 2019 and on, unblocking and a consequent fall can occur if the rope is heavily loaded below the user. Unblocking can occur if the rope is loaded with a weight equal to or greater than that of the person rappelling on the GRIGRI.

That words heavily loaded and the last bit is the key for me.
In rescue training scenarios I have taught and been part of, the amount of force needed to brake a person slamming open a gri gri with a firemans belay does not take your whole body weight by a long shot. If you have never done it, worth trying for the toolbox.
One rescue point that IMO is quite important: Your partner is using the new GG and loses consciousness somehow, the rescuer that traditionally could ascend the loaded line without risk to get to their partner now exposes the rescuee to danger. It does make taking a new GG on some types of outings a bit of a liability. Bummer to try sand rescue a friend/client/random only to potentially hurt them, hurt yourself, or both.

IMO, you shouldn't have to do a firemans belay on the GG+ as the panic pull is there.
To me, this means the info is quite more pertinent to newest model GG owners to be aware of.
This failure mode is great info to be spreading though as I'm pretty sure the literature that come with the device does not dive into that scenario like the literature linked below.
Here is the actual petzl literature rather than alpine savvy's blurb that misses some key points.

In the end when teaching novices on rope in a professional capacity, catastrophe knots are what we use. It's really the safest option most of the time.

Adding a friction hitch below a grigri, especially for beginners, simply introduces a novel failure mechanism: the person panics as they weight the device, they death grip both the handle and the friction hitch, and then deck. I know of it happening. Though I do wonder if panic gripping both the handle and tail (without a hitch) would arrest a fall? 

As was mentioned above, adding friction or a backup hitch for this device is really only needed in very specific and advanced circumstances. If there is any risk whatsoever of someone panicking, they probably shouldn't be repelling without a belayed backup or something else that will 100% prevent a dangerous fall.

Daniel Jeun wrote:

I was mainly curious if there should be any backup safety measures when using the grigri as a rappel device in single-pitch situations.

In most areas you should just be lowering. The shenanigans it would take to fix the line to rap on a gri gri would not be worth it in a single pitch in my opinion. You’re probably not going to top belay your partner up and simul rap down either. 

Zack Smith wrote:

None of those pictures “tie off” the gri gri. They add additional friction when rappelling

Fair enough. I should have been more specific/explicit with my wording. Point is, Fig. 47 provides a certain amount of increased comfort should you want to go hands free for a few minutes. And yes, I know most people just end up trusting the grigri for this on its own. I've done it too.

Any time I lower off a grigri (fixed line on anchor)- I simply put some catastrophe knots in the rope below.

You probably don't use a friction hitch to back up the grigri while lowering a belayed climber,  so why would you when rappelling with a grigri? Adding a friction in the normal manner makes the setup awkward at best since you don't have a free hand to operate the hitch.  

Exceptions to this have already been discussed and should be regarded as 'extenuating or rare circumstances' and as mentioned are probably better dealt with in other ways. 

It's customary to add an overhand knot below the gri gri when going hands free, or when one might expect a chance of losing control of the brake strand, for example,  when negotiating a very steep cliff edge. In these instances a catastrophe knot is preferred over a friction hitch as the friction hitch can be overrode by human error, unlike the knot.