Kilter Board for finger strength

Dan Schmidt wrote:

FWIW I don't think anyone should climb statically all the time. At 185lbs, I wouldn't send anything if I only moved slowly and statically! I'm just saying that for developing strength in climbing positions, it's helpful to sometimes practice statically by doing drills like lock-off ladders, one-arm holds, etc. You can get very creative with the drills, rules, or projects you make up to target that (e.g. what Aidan Roberts describes about his warmup), and so long as you're engaging very, very hard through the fingers and don't overdo it, it should work. You can also just climb your usual boulders, but force yourself to climb them as if you were a much stronger climber, controlling positions you would normally thrutch through just to send the problem.

Yes, exactly, especially the comment about body awareness. Slowing things down makes it much easier to learn.

And I wouldn't necessarily limit yourself to set climbs, either. Make something up that's perfect for you—the right number of moves, intensity, holds, and positions—and just lap it. Or add that positional practice to your warmup, but otherwise go a muerte in the main part of the session. It doesn't really matter what the grade is, the climb just needs to target what you're trying to develop.

Training should follow your goals imo..I use the kilter board mainly as a systems wall in preparation for sport climbing outside.For me at my level of climbing it feels perfect for this but i do use other boards and the local leading gym.I have friends here who climb 13a/b whose training is more refined than mine and they really like the moon board and don't use the  kilter board at all.

It's been a few weeks, so I'm kinda curious: how has it gone? (We don't tend to get enough follow-ups IMO.)

I have continued climbing on the Kilter Board a few times per week, including some setting sessions. Setting was actually quite illuminating for me, as it showed that, at my level at least, there really are no bad holds on the Kilter Board except for the footholds (which are horrendous). But regardless, after a few weeks of sessioning hard boulders, including some of my own sets (e.g. Grumpalump @ 50°), my finger strength on small holds is up: I hopped back on the Moon Board the other day and could lap some moves on the yellows and small wooden crimps that were previously very challenging for me. So, perhaps it doesn't matter all that much?

Dan Schmidt wrote:

It's been a few weeks, so I'm kinda curious: how has it gone? (We don't tend to get enough follow-ups IMO.)

I have continued climbing on the Kilter Board a few times per week, including some setting sessions. Setting was actually quite illuminating for me, as it showed that, at my level at least, there really are no bad holds on the Kilter Board except for the footholds (which are horrendous). But regardless, after a few weeks of sessioning hard boulders, including some of my own sets (e.g. Grumpalump @ 50°), my finger strength on small holds is up: I hopped back on the Moon Board the other day and could lap some moves on the yellows and small wooden crimps that were previously very challenging for me. So, perhaps it doesn't matter all that much?

I personally haven't actually acted on some of the advice you've been giving, for a couple reasons:

- I've been climbing outside so much recently (2 days this past weekend, 4 days the previous weekend) that I've had to ratchet back the amount of hard climbing I've done in the gym. Living in Colorado definitely has its perks (do I go skiing? climbing? both? Such a tough life.)

- When I have climbed indoors, I'm generally on the Tension Board 2, it just naturally has smaller holds so I haven't needed to use the Kilter at steep angles. But I'm thinking of mixing steep Kilter just to change things up a bit.

- I have noticed that with the TB2, it is definitely better to try to maintain tension rather than jump, just because the hand holds are smaller and some of the feet are pretty bad/slippery. It seems to test that ability more than either Kilter or Moon.

Oh yeah, if you have access to a TB2 and rock that seems like a much, much better choice for working finger strength. Nice.

I'm in Oregon, but more importantly I have a 1 year old and a partner in grad school, so it's just board lyfe for me for a while…

Just curious if you've tried some more isolation style workouts for your fingers? I love doing pull ups on small edges and bad slopers on the hangboard. Reps of 10, 4-8 sets. Rep them out perfectly like weight lifting. If you can only rep out 6, do 6, drop down and rest a short while, rep out 4 more to finish your set. (I'm always thinking perfect form, not volume reps.) It's also nice to throw in some pauses during full lock off position for an added challenge. 

I've found these to have a way bigger payoff than just hanging straight armed on a hangboard. ...like when are you ever climbing and just need to grab the hold? You need to grab the hold and pull that mofo down to your belly button! 

I've also found the Tension block to be very helpful at not only identifying your strongest grip positions, but more importantly, helping you identify your weakest grip positions per hand. I've found my left and right hands having somewhat different strengths and weaknesses per hand. 

We probably over complicated thing and try to always find the perfect training regimen and how to mix up hangboard , board climbing and everything...  I feel like we can probably gain finger strength from just climbing on a board of any kinds. Yes , the kilter board have bigger holds but the movement are also bigger and we need to generate high peak force to achieve the move , this is probably enough for finger recruitment and adaptation. I'm planning on doing a 2 month of kilter and removing / reducing time spent on hangboard to see.

I'm starting to think that we probably should just hangboard a bit to train grip type that are weaker and that we can't use in our climbing because of it...

Nicolas Cormier wrote:

We probably over complicated thing and try to always find the perfect training regimen and how to mix up hangboard , board climbing and everything...  I feel like we can probably gain finger strength from just climbing on a board of any kinds. Yes , the kilter board have bigger holds but the movement are also bigger and we need to generate high peak force to achieve the move , this is probably enough for finger recruitment and adaptation. I'm planning on doing a 2 month of kilter and removing / reducing time spent on hangboard to see.

I'm starting to think that we probably should just hangboard a bit to train grip type that are weaker and that we can't use in our climbing because of it...

What I was told is you need both to progress and prevent injury.

Hang boards specifically build core, arms and fingers. Campusing builds upper body.

Kilter and moon boards (which are both setup at my home gym) are for complete climbing coordination once you have enough finger and upper body strength. 

However, our setters are really good. They devise climbs that build strength evenly throughout the body from VB all the way up.

I have done a lot of fingerboard recently and I'm not sure that this is better than board climbing for finger strength injury prevention stuff. I surely get more stress from a 1h of board climbing vs doing max hang stuff. Maybe the stress of hard board climbing is really good if we can manage to stop our session at the right time , you need more experience for sure for this.

I think here is my understanding of the difference between hangboarding and climbing (on a board, or any other actual hard climbing):

With any sport that depends on strength, there is going to be duo of pure strength combined with the ability to apply that strength in a coordinated manner appropriate for the sport. Let's call these two raw strength vs. coordinated strength. (Then there is the technique side of things, but I'm speaking about the strength side of sports.) The balance of which strength (raw vs. coordinated) is more important depends on the sport itself; for example you have Powerlifting which mostly emphasizes raw strength, Olympic lifting which requires lots of raw strength but also coordination with more complex movements, Gymnastics which requires raw strength but lots of very complex coordination. Climbing finger strength clearly lies somewhere in this spectrum as well of needing both raw and coordinated strength (along with technique).

The most efficient way to train raw strength is with simple movements. This is to maximize the load placed on the muscles to allow the best muscular adaptations and to minimize the coordination requirements that will limit pure strength gains. This type of training will create really strong but "dumb" muscles. For example this is when football offensive linemen will spend time in the weight room doing squats, deadlifts, etc. For climbers, this is where the hangboard or fingerboard is most useful - the most efficient way to get strong, dumb fingers without having the coordination requirements of actual climbing to hamper progress.

To train coordinated strength, you need to take the gains from raw strength and practice these in a manner more specific to the sport itself. This is when those football linemen will spend time using the push sled and other football-like drills. For climbers, this is where board climbing comes in - to turn that raw strength into coordinated strength more specific to climbing motions. 

So optimally you would do both in concert with each other. How much of each is debatable, it probably depends on the individual. There does seem to be a consensus that you probably shouldn't be spending more than 25% percent of your training time doing hangboarding (raw strength) only.

Nice reply, about the raw strength part (we are probably also gaining it just from climbing since recently the hangboard protocol involve pulling at 80-85% of our max for a handful of reps.

We surely pull or do short burst of 80-85% of our max strength when board climbing , don't you think? 

Nicolas Cormier wrote:

I have done a lot of fingerboard recently and I'm not sure that this is better than board climbing for finger strength injury prevention stuff. I surely get more stress from a 1h of board climbing vs doing max hang stuff. Maybe the stress of hard board climbing is really good if we can manage to stop our session at the right time , you need more experience for sure for this.

More experienced hard climbers tell me you can’t tell when you get injured no matter what method you choose.

Finger boarding allows you to develop strength in a more controlled manner. Boring, I’ll grant you, but safer than climbing hard.

Nicolas Cormier wrote:

Nice reply, about the raw strength part (we are probably also gaining it just from climbing since recently the hangboard protocol involve pulling at 80-85% of our max for a handful of reps.

We surely pull or do short burst of 80-85% of our max strength when board climbing , don't you think? 

You could, but climbing alone is a less efficient way of gaining raw finger strength, for a couple reasons:
- It is more difficult to precisely control the load that you are putting on your fingers in a progressive manner

- There are many reasons why you might fail to do a move while climbing that don’t involve stressing your fingers: lack of coordination, flexibility, lack of technique, etc. Thus you may not actually get the full finger stress for max production of finger strength gains.

That being said, all the factors that I mentioned in the second point are important things to develop for climbing. So if you really had to choose only one (hangboarding vs climbing), clearly the latter is preferable. But ideally a combo of both, with greater emphasis on the latter. 

Adding a little anecdote with actual data here…

For the past month or so, I've exclusively been bouldering on the Kilter Board, including a lot of limit sessions. In that time, my maximum overcoming isometric strength increased from 125lbs to 140lbs and my yielding from 145lbs to 170lbs (all measured using a Tindeq). Since I was only climbing on the Kilter Board and training with a 25mm unlevel edge, I was pretty much only grabbing good holds, but I was limit bouldering 1-2x/week and getting hard volume another 1-2x/week. When I hopped back on the 2019 Moon Board to finish a warmup the other day, I easily sent two mini-projects/nemeses first try (Mamorkuchen 6C+ and Crazy Train 6C). Like, easily—I could lock off and control all the moves except for the jump to I16 on Crazy Train.

My takeaway from the Kilter Boarding:

• Obviously, my recruitment increased, mostly (I think) due to the limit bouldering sessions. For the most part, you can't develop the skill of climbing on really bad crimps on the Kilter Board (though, at 60–70° some of the holds provide a similar feeling). But if you're trying super hard on holds in the ballpark of a fingertip, even a bit larger, you'll get some benefit.
• Because the holds are so good, the KB is really good at developing shoulder and one-arm strength. The resultant increase in stability and body control allows you to get the most out of the finger strength you do have: you'll be better able to get into and out of optimal positions, and you won't oscillate as much on holds, making them easier to grip. I actually think this is significantly more important than the measured increase in forearm recruitment.

Also if anyone wants to try my KB project (seriously, I'm so psyched to see it sent at steeper angles), give The Grumpalump a try at 50°. I flashed it at 45°, but at 50° my best go was a send from a move in—it's a real MFer IMO. That gives a good sense of the intensity and style I aimed for in my limit sessions, in contrast to some of the softer / jumpier / draggier climbs in the 7Cish range.

Dan Schmidt wrote:

Adding a little anecdote with actual data here…

For the past month or so, I've exclusively been bouldering on the Kilter Board, including a lot of limit sessions. In that time, my maximum overcoming isometric strength increased from 125lbs to 140lbs and my yielding from 145lbs to 170lbs (all measured using a Tindeq). Since I was only climbing on the Kilter Board and training with a 25mm unlevel edge, I was pretty much only grabbing good holds, but I was limit bouldering 1-2x/week and getting hard volume another 1-2x/week. When I hopped back on the 2019 Moon Board to finish a warmup the other day, I easily sent two mini-projects/nemeses first try (Mamorkuchen 6C+ and Crazy Train 6C). Like, easily—I could lock off and control all the moves except for the jump to I16 on Crazy Train.

My takeaway from the Kilter Boarding:

• Obviously, my recruitment increased, mostly (I think) due to the limit bouldering sessions. For the most part, you can't develop the skill of climbing on really bad crimps on the Kilter Board (though, at 60–70° some of the holds provide a similar feeling). But if you're trying super hard on holds in the ballpark of a fingertip, even a bit larger, you'll get some benefit.
• Because the holds are so good, the KB is really good at developing shoulder and one-arm strength. The resultant increase in stability and body control allows you to get the most out of the finger strength you do have: you'll be better able to get into and out of optimal positions, and you won't oscillate as much on holds, making them easier to grip. I actually think this is significantly more important than the measured increase in forearm recruitment.

Also if anyone wants to try my KB project (seriously, I'm so psyched to see it sent at steeper angles), give The Grumpalump a try at 50°. I flashed it at 45°, but at 50° my best go was a send from a move in—it's a real MFer IMO. That gives a good sense of the intensity and style I aimed for in my limit sessions, in contrast to some of the softer / jumpier / draggier climbs in the 7Cish range.

Pretty comprehensive training!

I’ll try KB again, we’ve got a Tension Board as well. Only started fingerboard couple months ago cause I didn’t have strength to climb higher than 6A+ on the KB a few months ago, whereas I was able to flash some V3 at that time. I can finally up and down climb V3 and some V4. Will try Grumpalump tomorrow.

This one? Looks cool! I think I’ll lower the angle and make it a V4   

Li Hu wrote:

Pretty comprehensive training!

I’ll try KB again, we’ve got a Tension Board as well. Only started fingerboard couple months ago cause I didn’t have strength to climb higher than 6A+ on the KB a few months ago, whereas I was able to flash some V3 at that time. I can finally up and down climb V3 and some V4. Will try Grumpalump tomorrow.

This one? Looks cool! I think I’ll lower the angle and make it a V4   

Nice! Yeah, that's the one. I'm really curious what angle ends up feeling like V4. Both the hands and feet aren't very positive on this one, so it's very sensitive to the angle. Good luck, leave a comment when you send! 

Dan Schmidt wrote:

Nice! Yeah, that's the one. I'm really curious what angle ends up feeling like V4. Both the hands and feet aren't very positive on this one, so it's very sensitive to the angle. Good luck, leave a comment when you send! 

Kicked my butt, but was able to do another V6 after the attempts.

I agree, it’s a damned great workout!

Edit: this dude flashed your climb.

and the board was at 45 degrees…

Then later he said he climbs V10/V11. I believe he climbs those on actual rock cause there’s no V10 and above at most of the gyms.

Nice problem Dan , I will try it in a couple of days just for fun :) 

You write about training on unlevel edge. What kind of pull are you doing ;  finger curl (From open to half-crimp) or just maximal pull in a fixed position?

I'm asking because I just recently started doing maximal finger curl with a unlevel edge (like Tyler Nelson showed on youtube).

I'm also focusing on doing the pull + kilter board session for 6 weeks.

Nicolas Cormier wrote:

Nice problem Dan , I will try it in a couple of days just for fun :) 

Sweet! I'm glad it's getting action. At 45°, I think it would be a pretty solid Moon Board 7B—it feels comparable to Game of Shoulders, Gebrochener Knieboogie, and Lauchgefühle to me. The footwork and pulls are much harder at 50°, so it'll feel more like 7C/7C+. I'm not sure about lower angles. For me, there was just a huge jump between 45° and 50°—at 45° I was able to keep both feet on for every move and walk up the wall. That experience actually got me really psyched to try changing the angle on other climbs, too, just to see how exactly they and the technique changes.

You write about training on unlevel edge.

Yeah, I really like the UL edge! I don't want to oversell any of these things, because they're really small improvements in the grand scheme of things, but the price (low), weight (super low), and comfort (very high) are nice, plus I do get a little more control over individual fingers.

What kind of pull are you doing ;  finger curl (From open to half-crimp) or just maximal pull in a fixed position?

I incorporate both into my warmups. I'll ramp up a few sets of curls, then finish with a few RFD pulls, all mixed into a circuit of other exercises (med ball toss or power push-ups, power pull-ups, some loaded hip openers, etc.). Training-wise I'm exiting a period of having done a lot of limit bouldering, so I haven't been doing much strength training. I plan to switch towards strength training (probably 80% repeaters to a force loss threshold, plus wall crawls on my board) in the coming weeks. I'll keep track and maybe we can all check-in on our training in a few months.

Li Hu wrote:
Edit: this dude flashed your climb. and the board was at 45 degrees…

Right on! Hope it wasn't too easy for him.   That definitely makes sense for someone climbing at the V10/11 level, but I would still expect it to trouble him at ≥50°.

Dan Schmidt wrote:

Right on! Hope it wasn't too easy for him.   That definitely makes sense for someone climbing at the V10/11 level, but I would still expect it to trouble him at ≥50°.

He looked like we walked up it. Didn’t even break a sweat, but I believe he’s one of the better climbers at this gym (not my home gym).

Dan Schmidt wrote:

Yeah, I really like the UL edge! I don't want to oversell any of these things, because they're really small improvements in the grand scheme of things, but the price (low), weight (super low), and comfort (very high) are nice, plus I do get a little more control over individual fingers.

I incorporate both into my warmups. I'll ramp up a few sets of curls, then finish with a few RFD pulls

Dan,

Are you using a more open position for the RFD pull on the uneven edge to maximize the numbers that you get or you keep it in a strict half-crimp? If I understand correctly for this exercise , it's better to use the grip type that will be the higher numbers wise and once we gain a bit of recruitment , we can access this new recruitment level on our (Half-Crimp , full-crimp etc.) after adaptation on the wall. If this is the case , I have been limiting my recruitment gain by being always doing no hang lift in strict half-crimp.

Thanks!