El Potrero Chico Safety Info and Incident Report

MattB wrote:

Rad: short for radical. The story is pretty far from normal, thus "rad."

 Reservoir Dogs, The Godfather: rad stories, not happy stories. Pulling gear, decking, walking away: rad story. Hitchhiking in a foreign country, getting sprayed at by an AK? Rad as fuck. Good? No. Rad? Sure

Okay, fair.

On a personal note- I feel lucky to have spent the time I did in EPC over the past couple seasons. We spent enough time there for it to start to feel like a second home.  This season felt noticeably more tense than the previous one. We left wondering what the future would look like. Sad sad sad stuff to see. 

Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Crazy... Do you think that the shooter saw that there were gringos in the car?

Yeah I think so. Our heads were poking up over the truck bed and there were 4 of us in there, so it would’ve been fairly hard to miss us. 

re: Chris C's comment: "This season felt noticeably more tense than the previous one." 

Can you, Chris, or anyone else explicate?

The initial post/story reads as random, possibly anomalous violence – but Chris' comment changes the flavor.

I went down to EPC shortly after this happened and very shortly after I heard about this incident from a friend who was in the truck.  

I might add that it felt extremely safe for climbers even knowing what had just happened. Friends who had been there in years prior said that there were significantly more national police this year. I assume it was related to this incident.

It just feels important that people know about this while traveling there. One local I talked to had heard about it, but Americans I talked to who were spending all winter down there had not. It is certainly safe for climbers as long as we recognize that we are traveling in a region that is complicated politically and that there is a lot of things going on we don’t and can’t understand.

Moral of the story is EPC is awesome and everyone should go, just educate yourself and respect the fact that you are a foreigner traveling in a place that has a lot going on besides rock climbing.

jonathan howland wrote:

re: Chris C's comment: "This season felt noticeably more tense than the previous one." 

Can you, Chris, or anyone else explicate?

The initial post/story reads as random, possibly anomalous violence – but Chris' comment changes the flavor.

For some context, my wife and I went for 5 weeks in Jan/Feb 2023, and 3 weeks in Dec 2023.  Both times, we rented an AirBnb in San Pedro Garza García and drove to EPC 2-4 times per week to climb.  Definitely no regrets, and we 100% loved our stay there both times, and I rather be there right now.  

In Jan/Feb, we were a little surprised by people's safety concerns we had read about before coming.  We honestly felt like it was 100x overblown.  We went through 1 police checkpoint when we drove out super super far.  Otherwise, we did go through a bunch of checkpoints in San Pedro during late nights, but all were non-militarized DUI checkpoints.  Police are very often militarized there, but that is normal for all of Mexico really.  The only police presence in the park was non-militarized and really just to keep the people partying out of the cars from going totally wild, apparently a kid was killed around the park in a DUI incident recently.  

In Dec, there were militarized police checkpoints literally every day on the highway.  We went through at least one per day, usually two, with up to 4.  Those were not DUI checkpoints.  They were definitely pulling over, questioning, and searching people who all looked a certain way (I dont want to get into specifics); they definitely weren't interested in us ever.  There was also quite a lot of military patrol (not militarized policed, actual military) on the streets.  The militarized police also were frequenting the park itself. A funny moment for me was having a few heavily armed and masked police officers cheering me up the crux of Pepe y Lupe. San Pedro was not quite as popping nightlife wise (clubs, bars, etc), but I think that was because the holidays.

I still stand by my feeling that San Pedro Garza García is super safe, and probably safer than the City of Seattle.  I think I am literally 100x more likely to get assaulted walking to Starbucks in Seattle than walking to Starbucks in San Pedro.  The other areas are a different stories with different dynamics, but in general, it feels like the heat has risen a lot.  The notion (mostly being sprayed on FB, not here) that you are more likely to get murdered or shot in the USA than Mexico is factually untrue, the quickest google search will show the stats. Also, the notion (again, mostly on FB) that folks with beef/business/ideologies will stop shooting because a foreigner walks through the middle is naive in any region with unrest.  If a person is willing to shoot it out on the street, especially with 7.62 rounds, they, by default, don't care about bystanders. 

I love climbing in EPC, I love living in San Pedro, and I also love living in Seattle. My point with all of the above is, everybody just has to make the decision for themselves.  Saying something is categorically safe or categorically unsafe is really not possible.

Micah Ted wrote:

 It is certainly safe for climbers as long as we recognize that we are traveling in a region that is complicated politically extremely violent and that there is a lot of things going on we don’t and can’t understand.

Everybody thinks it's safe until it happens to them. Way more dangerous than the United States.

Chris C wrote:

I still stand by my feeling that San Pedro Garza García is super safe, and probably safer than the City of Seattle.  I think I am literally 100x more likely to get assaulted walking to Starbucks in Seattle than walking to Starbucks in San Pedro.  The other areas are a different stories with different dynamics, but in general, it feels like the heat has risen a lot.  The notion (mostly being sprayed on FB, not here) that you are more likely to get murdered or shot in the USA than Mexico is factually untrue, the quickest google search will show the stats. Also, the notion (again, mostly on FB) that folks with beef/business/ideologies will stop shooting because a foreigner walks through the middle is naive in any region with unrest.  If a person is willing to shoot it out on the street, especially with 7.62 rounds, they, by default, don't care about bystanders. 

Thanks for being willing to share more of your experience Chris! I totally agree with you: if they’re slinging AR ammunition, they don’t care what happens to bystanders. I think we all were extremely lucky to make it out alive and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This was actually my first time to EPC and the surrounding areas, and my experience is probably way out of the norm for people, but I just wanted people to be aware of what can happen and what to look for to maintain safety! I’ve seen plenty of comments (also on Facebook) sounding the idea that unless you’re looking for trouble down there, you’ll never find it… which just isn’t true.

Sounds like there’s still plenty of good times to be had down there.

Thanks again for being willing to elaborate and contribute to the conversation!

I've been coming down to EPC fairly regularly for the better part of a decade now, and actually ran into the cops at this spot the day it happened. I was walking down to the brewery that night, and they politely told me I needed to use a different path to avoid walking through the crime scene.

A few points - 

Hitchhiking on the road between the canyon and Hidalgo is extremely common. Much of the time you don't even need to throw out a thumb before another climber or friendly local will pull over and offer you a ride. I've caught quite a few rides this way and given quite a few in return. It's also not uncommon to see Mexicans here driving nice cars - Monterrey is the richest city per capita in Mexico, and EPC draws Mexican tourists as well as climbers. I don't see a Mexican driving a nice car here and immediately assume they have connections with the cartels. While OP's decision to catch a ride might have carried more risk than simply walking, I think it is important to note that it was a very normal decision for climbers to make in Hidalgo.

I'll echo that things feel a bit more tense this year than last year. However, I chalked most of that up to economic concerns that many of the vendors in the canyon have due to fewer climbers showing up this year compared to last. There is an increased police presence in the canyon this year compared to last, but it is still minimal compared to years past. When I first started going to EPC in 2015/16, there would normally be 3 or 4 federal police trucks patrolling the canyon all day every day.

Comparing the danger of being in EPC to the danger of being in the US is pretty tricky. I personally feel very safe walking around the canyon and the town, even alone at night. I couldn't say the same when I'm walking past the homeless encampments in downtown Denver. The homicide rate in Mexico is undoubtedly higher than the US, but Mexico is not a monolith, and most violence concentrates in big cities and along the border, while Hidalgo is a relatively prosperous small town. I've never felt like I might get mugged or kidnapped - but I've had friends suffer from petty theft. One got too drunk partying with some Mexicans one night and woke up with no wallet. Another had their tent stolen when left unattended in a less populated area. And of course we all know about a certain margarita vendor...

On the whole, I feel like the Facebook comments are largely correct. If you aren't buying kilos of cocaine or getting into bar fights, EPC is not that dangerous. But that comes with a big asterisk - you are, after all, *in Mexico*, and you should take common sense precautions to stay safe and unmolested. And as OP's report illustrates, even if you are acting very reasonably, shit can still go down - as it can anywhere in the world. You are probably more likey to encounter violence in Mexico than you are sitting on your couch, camping in The Creek, or walking through the Costco parking lot. But on the other hand.... you're a rock climber. If you aren't okay taking on some additional risk in order to have a greater experience, then you should probably find a different sport. I'm more concerned with getting creamed by rockfall in the canyon than with a Mexican trying to murder me.

Of course, this is all my own risk analysis. I understand why OP might feel differently - I don't want to invalidate their experience, and everyone has to make their own assessment on the level of risk they are willing to accept. But my view is that OP ended up in a crazy unlikely situation through no fault of their own. EPC has been and still is a fairly safe destination with amazing climbing, friendly locals, a welcoming climbing scene, delicious food, and a low cost of living, and I would still encourage American climbers to come down and experience this amazing place.

FrankPS wrote:

Everybody thinks it's safe until it happens to them. Way more dangerous than the United States.

The world is so scary.  I wish the someone would make me feel safe again.

Chris C wrote:

For some context, my wife and I went for 5 weeks in Jan/Feb 2023, and 3 weeks in Dec 2023.  Both times, we rented an AirBnb in San Pedro Garza García and drove to EPC 2-4 times per week to climb.  Definitely no regrets, and we 100% loved our stay there both times, and I rather be there right now.  

In Jan/Feb, we were a little surprised by people's safety concerns we had read about before coming.  We honestly felt like it was 100x overblown.  We went through 1 police checkpoint when we drove out super super far.  Otherwise, we did go through a bunch of checkpoints in San Pedro during late nights, but all were non-militarized DUI checkpoints.  Police are very often militarized there, but that is normal for all of Mexico really.  The only police presence in the park was non-militarized and really just to keep the people partying out of the cars from going totally wild, apparently a kid was killed around the park in a DUI incident recently.  

In Dec, there were militarized police checkpoints literally every day on the highway.  We went through at least one per day, usually two, with up to 4.  Those were not DUI checkpoints.  They were definitely pulling over, questioning, and searching people who all looked a certain way (I dont want to get into specifics); they definitely weren't interested in us ever.  There was also quite a lot of military patrol (not militarized policed, actual military) on the streets.  The militarized police also were frequenting the park itself. A funny moment for me was having a few heavily armed and masked police officers cheering me up the crux of Pepe y Lupe. San Pedro was not quite as popping nightlife wise (clubs, bars, etc), but I think that was because the holidays.

I still stand by my feeling that San Pedro Garza García is super safe, and probably safer than the City of Seattle.  I think I am literally 100x more likely to get assaulted walking to Starbucks in Seattle than walking to Starbucks in San Pedro.  The other areas are a different stories with different dynamics, but in general, it feels like the heat has risen a lot.  The notion (mostly being sprayed on FB, not here) that you are more likely to get murdered or shot in the USA than Mexico is factually untrue, the quickest google search will show the stats. Also, the notion (again, mostly on FB) that folks with beef/business/ideologies will stop shooting because a foreigner walks through the middle is naive in any region with unrest.  If a person is willing to shoot it out on the street, especially with 7.62 rounds, they, by default, don't care about bystanders. 

I love climbing in EPC, I love living in San Pedro, and I also love living in Seattle. My point with all of the above is, everybody just has to make the decision for themselves.  Saying something is categorically safe or categorically unsafe is really not possible.

San Pedro is possibly the richest town in ALL of Latin America! Your comparisons and experience there hold absolutely zero relevance to anything being discussed in this thread. 

Zac Bristol wrote:

San Pedro is possibly the richest town in ALL of Latin America! Your comparisons and experience there hold absolutely zero relevance to anything being discussed in this thread. 

Feel free to contribute your experiences to the thread. If you dont want to read about my time in San Pedro, just read about what I wrote about EPC..lol. Or just don't read anything I write.  

To anybody else who may be wondering where my perspective is coming from- In 2023, I spent about 25 climbing days in EPC, and a bit more than 60 days in the area. The reason I wrote about my experience in San Pedro, and Monterrey for that matter, is because most climbers never get out of the park/Hidalgo and are totally oblivious to what's happening in the surrounding area of over 5M people.  I was trying to give a bit more context for what the greater region felt like to me. Also, the majority of the highway checkpoints I mentioned happened right before the entrance to Hidalgo.  The military patrols were on the highways outside Hidalgo.  That all felt pretty relevant to me when talking about the park IMO.

The heavy police presence is a pretty big tell as to how much things have deteriorated in Northern Mexico over the years.

My wife and I (and friends) climbed in EPC in the late 90s/early 00s. This was a different era, kiddos. It was The Times Before. No AirBnB, no campground Internet, no cell service, no Mountain Project, and virtually no hot water (at Homero's). You called the 'States from a TelMex payphone two miles down the road toward Hidalgo (and bent at a 30-degree angle). Weed was sold in gallon-sized zip lock bags from some seasonal in a Winnebago. Climbers would pluck peyote from the surrounding desert, blend it with some fruit, and drink the slurry. Stray dogs everywhere. If you wanted a guidebook you tracked down Magic Ed and bought the photocopies straight from the author.

The one thing we rarely saw was cops, maybe three in the entirety of the time we spent in Mexico. Two were in a Monterrey subway station (heavily armed) and one was a local who stopped by the campground to chat with the owner. I distinctly recall he was offered a beer and declined. No checkpoints, no patrols, nada.

To clarify a bit, I received a message from the guy who got shot.  The facts as presented were:

1.  They had just arrived in Hidalgo/EPC that morning.

2.  They were not there the night before, drunk and causing trouble as some Facebook post intimated.

3.  The truck of the victim looked like a truck some people obviously had a big problem with.  It was not the same people in the truck that had any problems with anyone.

4.  The guy who got shot was with his wife and was born in Hidalgo and has family in the area and visits numerous times per year.

5.  He is very grateful for the help provided by the hitchhikers after he got shot, aiding with his injuries.

6.  The victim is likely to miss about a year of work due to the injuries, but is glad it was not worse, and his passengers were not injured.

7.  Does not want this incident to impact climbers going to the EPC and having fun.  

FrankPS wrote:

No need for me to ever go to Mexico.

Yup, climbers don't need that shit. 

You'll love Spain and no friggin' guns ever let alone any shootings.

giraud b wrote:

Yup, climbers don't need that shit. 

You'll love Spain and no friggin' guns ever let alone any shootings.

Hard to drive to Spain though.

When I was there, hitchhiking short rides between the climber campsites and town was a pretty regular thing to do, I was told. We were offered rides more than once when we were intending to walk somewhere without even sticking our thumb up, just while walking to/from the grocery store. Just as an FYI for others, if this is still the case, that what the OP was doing is pretty normal.

This is a crazy story, and thankfully no one else was injured further! Crazy though, good to know...

I have been to EPC 3 times, most recently Jan 2023-Always felt safe

However, there appears to currently be an escalation in cartel violence-I would hestitate to go there now-Collateral damage is now more of a possibilty until things cool down

Jackii Brandt-Mudge wrote:

However, there appears to currently be an escalation in cartel violence

Where can climbers learn more specifics about this?  Or are you referring only to the incident that started this thread?

These climbers made a big post on Facebook explicitly stating how dangerous EPC is and to not believe anyone who states otherwise. While I am sorry they had to experience this incident I don't think they were targeted nor do I think EPC is extra dangerous.

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Where can climbers learn more specifics about this?  Or are you referring only to the incident that started this thread?

The go to on Mexican cartel "happenings" online is called borderland beat. 

Basically the cartels were somewhat static before el chapo was arrested (the current time). Now lots of startup cartels are trying to get their slice of the pie, causing lots of little battles. Business extortion has gotten worse and worse (partly from loss of marijuana revenue), and some naive petty criminals will try to scare businesses that are already being "protected" by some other groups. 

Mexico is at a bad place right now, but still not terribly dangerous statistically for most tourists.