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Ice Screw Rack - Modern Sensibilities

Original Post
Thomas Meyer · · MN · Joined Feb 2023 · Points: 0

Although there are many MP posts along the lines of "what is the ideal beginner rack of ice screws, etc...", I have been doing some reading as I look to augment my rack for this winter, and just wanted to hear peoples' thoughts on two questions.

1) Will Gadd's "Ice & Mixed Climbing: Modern Technique" from 2003 recommends the following beginner rack for ice climbing: 1x22cm, 7x19cm, 4x16cm, 1x13cm. It seems as if modern sensibilities (later blog posts by Will Gadd included) lean towards a rack with shorter screw sizes. What is the impetus behind this change? (i.e. improvements in technology, differences in climbing style, better understanding of screw strengths, etc...)

2) If you could build the ideal rack of 12 screws, with the goal of confidently leading backcountry ice in MT and Canada in the winter, and getting on "intermediate, for lack of a better word" spring/summer alpine ice/mixed routes in the PNW and Canadian Rockies, what sizes of screws would be included in your rack?

Sam Bedell · · Bend, OR · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 443

1. Yes, technology seems to have gotten better and 13's are more reliable. 

2. I would not take 12 screws in the alpine. Learn to climb with less and mix in rock gear. For WI cragging I would have 1x 22 per person for anchors and v-threads, 4x 16 and 6-8x 13's.

Thomas Meyer · · MN · Joined Feb 2023 · Points: 0

Definitely right on question 2. Question should read “for WI cragging, but also useful for …”

drew A · · Portland, OR · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 6

Won't comment really on the 12 number. But take as many screws as you want. Think about the type of route, how many will be used up at anchors, is rock gear available, pitch lengths, comfort level, etc. That part is up to you.

I typically carry:

22 - 1

19 - 0 (I don't own any)

16 - remainder/2

13 - remainder/2

10 - 2

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687

I'm also in the "13s are your bread and butter these days" camp. But another issue I have with WG's list is he doesn't mention 10s. Maybe I should be envious that he either a) only climbs fat ice, or b) just doesn't worry about falling when the ice is thinner than 13 cm. (I think we all know the answer to that).  But anyway, unless YOU never encounter thin-ish ice, you should be racking at least one 10. Even on fat ice, it's a nice weapon to be able to fire in quickly if things are starting to go sideways e.g. a crampon pops off, you drop a tool.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

2 @22cm

2@16cm

6@13cm

2@ 10cm

 is what I would recommend for buying your first 12 screws.   Lots of easier climbs can have thin sections. 

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687

And when you get tired of bottoming out your 10s, it's time for a 7 cm.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

thats just the first 12 screws. I have 3 7cm screws but rarely carry them. they fall into the specialty gear category wereas 10cm are almost a standard screw for me and I typically carry 4 of them. 

Jake907 · · Anchorage Alaska · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0
Gunkiemike wrote:

And when you get tired of bottoming out your 10s, it's time for a 7 cm.

Tell me - has anyone ever actually whipped on a 7 and lived to tell about it??? I'm in the mood for a scary story.

Grant Watson · · Red Deer, AB · Joined Feb 2023 · Points: 13

I agree with what seems to be the general consensus: 13s for the most part, and a 21/22 for a thread anchor.  If I'm likely to encounter rotten chandelier ice, I'd want to have a couple of 16s for that.

I don't have any 10s or shorter (though I'm sure Gunkiemike will keep working on that  ), so I guess I must be spoiled for fat-ish ice.  I'm not sure I'd take more than one 21/22 unless I was pretty sure I was going to use at least one on a pitch, other than for a v/a-thread.

As a novice leader, I still have a lot to learn about planning my screw placements and organizing my rack to facilitate that.  I confess that more than once I've been happy to come up with anything that seems to be sort of screw-shaped after reaching into my rear loop cookie jar with a bit of pump setting in.  This might suggest that most lengths are good enough in most situations.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,687
Jake907 wrote:

Tell me - has anyone ever actually whipped on a 7 and lived to tell about it??? I'm in the mood for a scary story.

There's a NY Forest Ranger who claims to have fallen on a 7.  

I'll give one of my 7s to anyone willing to climb 1 meter above it and jump off.  (to be caught by the 7, of course). Video required!

Matt S · · Traverse City, MI · Joined Jan 2022 · Points: 575
Gunkiemike wrote:

There's a NY Forest Ranger who claims to have fallen on a 7.  

I'll give one of my 7s to anyone willing to climb 1 meter above it and jump off.  (to be caught by the 7, of course). Video required!

Given how strong screw threads have been demonstrated to be (although I would discount any test done in lake ice or any other non-waterfall ice), I don't see why a 7 in solid ice wouldn't hold at least a minor fall. I'm sure the upper level of force it can handle is lower than a longer screw, but my intuition is that a well placed 7 would have no problem taking a whip from a fall 10 feet above the placement.

Not that I plan on testing my hypothesis

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

it all depends. fully placed in good well bonded ice with a lot of rope in the system I am certain that they are truck.  shortly after leaving the belay not so much. poor ice quality not a chance... 

Mark Pilate · · MN · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 25
Gunkiemike wrote:

There's a NY Forest Ranger who claims to have fallen on a 7.  

I'll give one of my 7s to anyone willing to climb 1 meter above it and jump off.  (to be caught by the 7, of course). Video required!

As Nick said,  7-10’s are fine in solid ice after placing several other screws and the FF drops below 0.5

If leading out from a belay stance, (in decent ice) start with a 16 for first piece,  then several 13’s spaced to taste, then go to  a 10 or two, and then place your 7’s just before you establish your next belay.   You’re not gonna fall anyway ;)

Ellen S · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 156
Jake907 wrote:

Tell me - has anyone ever actually whipped on a 7 and lived to tell about it??? I'm in the mood for a scary story.

I have bounce tested it vigorously, and could only successfully rip it out of very obviously shitty snice (the kind that would be only mental pro even if you put a 22cm in it). But you could've done that yourself...

Jim Clarke · · Fruitland, UT · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 2,423

7 19cm would be absolutely crazy to carry...even 10 years ago, couple of blues, 4-5 yellows. 

Grant Kleeves · · Ridgway, CO · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 60

there's some serious regional bias in the replies here... by all means, if you climb in the east a lot you want some 10's and maybe even a 7, if you are in the CO/WY/MT area I'd call those specialty pieces, you're not going to be placing them often enough on moderate routes to justify removing a 13 or 16 from the rack, true, less than 10CM thick ice that's actually bonded to anything and not completely aerated junk is really, really, hard to come by in the mountain west, especially on moderate routes...

for a starter rack in the West  I'd get one 22 for threads, make it a fatty aluminum as it's going to stay on your harness 95% of the time,  zero 19's, five 16's, and six 13's, it's nice to be able to fire in some 16's at belays or when you run into crappy, sunbaked ice, I'd actually say that the harder things get the more long screws I use in general, around western CO the hard stuff has lot's of shell and sunbake in general, 13's get scary fast, a 16 gives you a bit more bite when half the screw is in air.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

Its so situational. late season here in the NE I bring more 16s and 22s.the ice is fat and rotten. mid season on airated curtains 5-5+ I often find  that a 16 or often even a 13 will punch through the layer of good ice into air pockets and that 10cm screws in that good outer layer are often the move. other times its just thin ice for long sections. 

NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 1

My total rack of screws is: 

1 x 22

4 x 19

6 x 16

8 x 13

4 x 10

4 x 7

I select the rack for the climb based on the conditions I find at the time. 

Jim Clarke · · Fruitland, UT · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 2,423
Grant Kleeves wrote:

there's some serious regional bias in the replies here... by all means, if you climb in the east a lot you want some 10's and maybe even a 7, if you are in the CO/WY/MT area I'd call those specialty pieces, you're not going to be placing them often enough on moderate routes to justify removing a 13 or 16 from the rack, true, less than 10CM thick ice that's actually bonded to anything and not completely aerated junk is really, really, hard to come by in the mountain west, especially on moderate routes...

for a starter rack in the West  I'd get one 22 for threads, make it a fatty aluminum as it's going to stay on your harness 95% of the time,  zero 19's, five 16's, and six 13's, it's nice to be able to fire in some 16's at belays or when you run into crappy, sunbaked ice, I'd actually say that the harder things get the more long screws I use in general, around western CO the hard stuff has lot's of shell and sunbake in general, 13's get scary fast, a 16 gives you a bit more bite when half the screw is in air.

This is spot on for the West mid season...just maybe not Uintas or Maple in UT early. We certainly bring stubbies and a super stubby. East Coast are just hard mofos on scary thin ice that's now sadly become more frequent. Fire a 22 fatty on hanging belays in Canada and Cody...might as well use it. Threading thin twins through a zero thread made with the big aluminum (even 19cm) is a breeze, often no threader tool needed.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 460

you can absolutly make threads with a 13 if you have to ;)    I have a friend who claims it works with 10s...    We do have plenty of fat ice but there is often a thin pitch to get to it and we also have lots of interesting thin climbs.  I usually carry five 10s on this 600ft climb.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Ice Climbing
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