Can we please stop the carnage at fixed anchors with steel biners or mussys?

I am aware of a couple reasons and others can feel free to add additional ones. 

First being theft, which is why the advent of captive eye carabiners emerged. S
Secondly being the relative difficulty to place in such away that they are opposite opposed, likely requiring a series of quick links.  If you are using chains just use a ring and if they are paraell just use mussys which are cheaper anyway.  

In between all this newly-formed mistrust of the mussy hook, one thing I'm finding difficult to visualize is how a locker positioned above the mussys would cause the bight of rope to become unclipped from both mussys on its way down.

I am able to see it if the rope were twisted around both gates and the locker were removed. I suppose more implausible things have happened at unattended anchors. Just wow.

I think the one additional piece we can add to our safety arsenal would be to not use the "single locker above" method when using mussy hooks.

This shows what most likely happened.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cyet4OWOmMH/

For me, the missing component in this particular anchor cleaning was a personal anchor system (PAS) which would have allowed the climber to safely test transferring from one system to the other… from the toprope system to the lowering system.

Anna, thanks for sharing the link. That's what I originally envisioned, but I just couldn't visualize what kind of intentional movement of the rope would cause this kind of positioning. Perhaps I don't have the imagination for it right now. That's why I assumed there was some twisting involved.

Since some have suggested TRing through the Mussy's to minimize risk, let me share my near-death from that - https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/119581085/a-safety-consideration-against-tr-through-mussy-hooks (TLDR - rope twisting)

Mussy hooks are purposely oriented with both gates facing out and are intended to be used for lowering only.

Mussy hooks should not be used for toproping. If a party topropes on mussy hooks, they risk the rope becoming accidentally unclipped because of the gate orientation.

Instead, attach your own anchor gear to the anchor bolts for toproping, clean it at the end of the day and lower off the mussy hooks.

Additionally, always use a PAS type setup when cleaning anchors to ensure safe transfer from the toprope anchor to the lowering mussy hooks. This cannot be an optional step! 

Yes, another reinforced takeaway for me was to always use some sort of personal anchor or clove on a carabiner. A specialized one isn't needed, even a carabiner on a sling will do.

It's nice to be able to use two hands. Perhaps the party decided one wasn't needed as the rope was threaded through the mussys.

As climbers, there are mistakes we will only make once.

My takeaway was also to not get lazy with my PAS and testing system transfers. 

Karsten's example aligns perfectly with the stated order of events by the belayer.  After seeing the anchors in that image I posted earlier in this thread it seemed like there was no way for the climber's hips to go above the anchor or for there to be a substantial amount of slack to be induced in the system to create this scenario. But in this video you can see there is a stance available with large holds that could position the climber's hips either at or above the mussy's.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-kBTZSnONU 

Karsten, thanks for the video. 

Take aways for me: 

1. Mussys are for lowering only 

2. Never climb above mussys (its equivocal to being back-clipped) 

3. The top-rope locker technique is for only situations where the rope cannot escape the fixed gear, eliminating any chance of climber error.

A seemingly appropriate application of a technique that was not applied to the right system likely created a catastrophic result. 

I'll pass on the PAS. If I'm cleaning I'll have plenty of gear. If the rope runs free, bring some gear. Never rap or TR without something to work with. In the odd chance you find yourself without the gear you wish you had, hang on! We're climbers. That's what we do! 

I get that Anna is vehemently opposed to any wear on mussys and loves the PAS. We’ll just have to disagree.  Though I do use my petzl connect for multi pitch, top down, and TRS scenarios.  Not sport crags. The horror….

As for Serge, I liked Mikey Schaefer’s response when Serge posted that the first time:

“If you have rope twists that are so large they can unclip the rope from a biner you have something else going wrong in your TR/belay setup that is worth figuring out.  This shouldn't be a thing with a properly managed rope and belay.”

finally I’d like to say thank you for a productive thoughtful discussion. 

Anna Brown wrote:

Mussy hooks are purposely oriented with both gates facing out and are intended to be used for lowering only.

Mussy hooks should not be used for toproping. If a party topropes on mussy hooks, they risk the rope becoming accidentally unclipped because of the gate orientation.

Instead, attach your own anchor gear to the anchor bolts for toproping, clean it at the end of the day and lower off the mussy hooks.

Additionally, always use a PAS type setup when cleaning anchors to ensure safe transfer from the toprope anchor to the lowering mussy hooks. This cannot be an optional step! 

A tether can absolutely be an optional step cleaning mussys.  Imagine 2 opposed quickdraws or a quad, or a myriad of other common top rope setups. The leader reaches the anchor, places rope in the mussies, calls for take,  checks the system then takes the old (unweighted) system off. At no point is the security of the system compromised. There is no need to complicate things by adding a tether.

A high carabiner or draw to take the weight off of the wear component should be used only with closed systems, though a tether may have prevented the accident in question, the system should be avoided all together when using mussy anchors.  

clipping hard into the anchor is a no brainer. most of us fail to do this occasionally... 

If a party topropes directly off mussy hooks, they risk the rope becoming accidentally unclipped because the mussy gates are oriented with both pointed forward. They are oriented like this to make clipping for lowering easier and to keep the nose/gate away from the rock  

This exact back clipping could happen in a toprope scenario. Imagine flicking the rope above you to move it around a section of rock and the rope reorients at the anchor such that when you weight it, the rope backclips and detached from the anchor. Or imagine a long route where you can’t see the anchor and the rope twists at the anchor between one person lowering and the next person toproping. If the rope gets into the right position on the mussy gates, it could become unclipped when sufficiently weighted.

For me, a PAS is whatever method you use to secure yourself as you transfer from one system to another. It could be a commercial sewn looped setup, quickdraws, a girthed sling, a commercial tether, any combo of these. In this accident, the use of a PAS while anchor cleaning is the missing piece of gear/knowledge/skill that would have gotten her back to the ground alive.

This accident has helped me see that I’m personally getting a bit too confident during toprope anchor cleaning and need to dial things back to the basics.

When you lead a route, clip the mussies and clean a toprope anchor, you’re protected by the quickdraw below you if you screw things up at the anchor for lowering. I’m less concerned about a PAS in that scenario. A PAS is a must do when cleaning a toprope anchor while on toprope with no quickdraw below you. 

We as climbers decide the limits that we go to in the pursuit of safety. Oftentimes a lot of what we do is "super good enough".

Yes, a personal anchor can be optional at a mussy hook loweroff. It is your choice. To me however, if say you're top-roping up and transitioning from a bomber system (e.g. quad anchor at bolts) to another bomber system (mussy hooks), you won't know you are safe until you fully weight the system. This is why I wish to use a PAS in that scenario. Yeah, when leading, you've got all the draws below you to save your life.

But to each their own. I am not the PAS police!

dosent need to be a pas. you can clip in hard with a sling or draw. 

Julian, you’re spot on about not knowing you’re safe until you weight the anchor. That’s where I can see I’ve gotten a little too confident when cleaning toprope anchors without quickdraws below me.

I agree, we all get to make our own decisions but often new climbers don’t have well-rounded enough skills yet to make informed decisions. These forum threads have to be so confusing for them!

If anyone is looking for mentorship in the area of setting or cleaning anchors, please feel free to reach out to me directly. I’ve helped several people over Zoom in the past and if you’re near me in New Mexico, I’m happy to meet you in person. 

philip bone wrote:

I'll pass on the PAS. Never rap or TR without something to work with. 

Anything but a PAS?

chummer wrote:

 Whenever I get lowered I try to stay clipped in with a long sling or a couple of draws until I am certain that the rope is coming tight. 

This, unfortunately, is the answer.  As has been stated multiple times in this thread and probably in countless others, anyone can screw up any configuration unless they just don't touch it and lower off of whatever they're already on.  With any system, two things have to happen in order to prevent these events- the climber must have an alternative means of attaching to the anchor besides the rope, and that means must stay connected until the lowering system has been tested.  These two points are critical in avoiding lower off/anchor misconfiguration accidents.

It's one thing if two or more inexperienced climbers go out and have unknown unknowns- meaning that they aren't aware of what they don't know.  It's quite another for someone experienced to send someone up a top rope ride and then assume they know how to clean properly.  

PAS is only necessary if the anchor equipment you’re cleaning is above the mussies. As long as the top rope anchor is set below the mussies, you can ask for a bit of slack, clip the mussies, weight the mussies, and then safely clean the top rope anchor.