safety measure for cleaning top rope anchors

i know this has all been discussed as nauseum but another accident just occurred where a beginner cleaning the anchors tragically fell after what may or may not have been a mistake in the cleaning. just wanted to share something i learned when i first cleaned anchors that my friend had me do, which adds security. i would encourage experienced people taking new people out to do this because unlike explaining what to do at the anchors, this can be visually seen and confirmed by the experienced belayer:

you led a climb, and have a beginner clean gear and break down the anchors and get lowered. when they get to the last draw before the anchors, have them leave it on the hanger, unclip it from the strand they're on and clip the strand going to the belayer. then they can proceed and do whatever you instructed them to do at the top. if all is good, they clean that draw on the way down. in the event they screw it up, they will take a lead fall onto that last draw.

what i like about this, from experience, is it's easy to explain and show, and it's very often (on beginner climbs) easy to actually see from the belay stance, so you can confirm that they did it, unlike the anchor situation which is usually impossible to see as it's happening.

take care out there.

I understand that you have good intentions, and I have enough experience that I understand what you are saying, but it is not written clearly.  Also, what you are suggesting is not completely safe.  For one thing, if the route is traversing after the last bolt to the anchors, especially is it's traversing and a little overhanging, the "beginner" second may find it scary to get back to the clipped bolt. Their natural lowering line will not be taking them to the bolt. You can have them clip your line to get over there, but there is always some sway with this method and beginners are often freaked out by this kind of movement.  Additionally, unless the last bolt, that you had them clip, is on a locking biner, taken a lead fall onto a single bolt at the top of a route is neither foolproof (bolts can come unclipped) nor redundant.

IMO, with a beginner, just lower them from the top, without them touching the anchor at all, then you or an experienced person can refollow your line and clean it yourself.  Rap or if you trust them, have them lower you.  For most routes, taking care of it yourself and leaving a beginner out of the equation adds an extra 5 minutes.  

fair enough. if you'd like to explain it more clearly, i'm all for it and would appreciate better phrasing. to address your good comments:

you're right that for total beginners, don't rely on them for anything but physically moving up the rock and then letting go. i'm more talking about beginners who have been climbing for a bit, maybe first time outside, maybe 4th time outside, ready to learn more. at some point, that person will have to learn to break down an anchor. ideally, you'd be up there on an adjacent anchor watching them and instructing them but that's just not how it works out in most situations. eventually, they will have to break down an anchor and get lowered and there will be a first time alone up there.

regarding a wandering line, again, just from my experience being that "beginner+" and taking out multiple people in that category since then, these climbs have been vertical or slab, direct straight short pitches, no traversing. if you're making a total beginner clean a traverse, you're probably doing it wrong and none of these methods will prevent that more fundamental mistake of just picking a more simple climb.

finally, regarding the foolproof draw, i didn't mean to imply that was the case. it surely is better than nothing in the event of a mistake at the anchor. further following the logic, the follower could unclip and clip the other strand for every draw instead of the last one to further back up the safety chain.

i simply remember the first time i cleaned a sport anchor and my friend told me to do this, and looking back on it, i thought it was a great and easy idea and i have added it to my toolkit ever since.

thanks again for your thoughts, please chime in if there's a good way to clarify what i'm trying to say!

I like this, if I'm cleaning a sport route on top rope or second, I always try do this.

I think it's pretty simple, the last quickdraw before the anchor, instead of removing it, unclip it from the rope in front of you, and clip it to the other strand of rope that runs to the belayer.

Phylp's concern about a traverse between the last bolt and anchors is valid, but I'd suggest if the traverse is that far, it wasn't really the best route for toproping in the first place.

I hate cleaning top rope anchors to lower, and just seeing the belay strand running straight to the ground, nothing clipped between the belayer and myself at the anchor. It's a bit spooky.

garrett, i also use this technique, but it doesn't really apply to mussy hooks. it also doesn't accomplish the goal of teaching how to do the full breakdown since leaving the anchor like that does the key work for them. but i agree that there are many many situations where this is an excellent thing to do.

ilya f wrote:

fair enough. if you'd like to explain it more clearly, i'm all for it and would appreciate better phrasing. to address your good comments:

you're right that for total beginners, don't rely on them for anything but physically moving up the rock and then letting go. i'm more talking about beginners who have been climbing for a bit, maybe first time outside, maybe 4th time outside, ready to learn more. at some point, that person will have to learn to break down an anchor. ideally, you'd be up there on an adjacent anchor watching them and instructing them but that's just not how it works out in most situations. eventually, they will have to break down an anchor and get lowered and there will be a first time alone up there.

regarding a wandering line, again, just from my experience being that "beginner+" and taking out multiple people in that category since then, these climbs have been vertical or slab, direct straight short pitches, no traversing. if you're making a total beginner clean a traverse, you're probably doing it wrong and none of these methods will prevent that more fundamental mistake of just picking a more simple climb.

finally, regarding the foolproof draw, i didn't mean to imply that was the case. it surely is better than nothing in the event of a mistake at the anchor. further following the logic, the follower could unclip and clip the other strand for every draw instead of the last one to further back up the safety chain.

i simply remember the first time i cleaned a sport anchor and my friend told me to do this, and looking back on it, i thought it was a great and easy idea and i have added it to my toolkit ever since.

thanks again for your thoughts, please chime in if there's a good way to clarify what i'm trying to say!

Thanks, Ilya, you have added a number of salient points in this comment. I agree, with a beginner, straight up and down route, less than overhanging is the way they will be safest.  I use the "clip the top draw on the other rope" method myself all the time with my experienced partners.  However, I don't want to rewrite what you are suggesting. I think we may have fundamentally different ideas about when someone is ready to deal with an anchor.

I have a friend who I met in the gym and I climb with him and trade lead belays with him there all the time.  He's been climbing indoors for 3-4 years but due to work and family circumstances has never climbed outside.  I'll be taking him outside to a sport climbing area for the first time next month.  He leads 11c/d in the gym. That would fit your criteria of "ready to learn more".  His first time outside, I can guarantee you I won't let him clean an anchor.  The "ready to learn more" that he will be learning will relate to reading a guidebook, finding a formation, watching the natural environment for hazards, figuring out what route you are on.  As to the routes themselves, he will be learning reading the rock, testing for hollow rock, understanding fall scenarios etc.  He'll be getting this learning from my running commentary as I'm leading because I do not think he will want to lead even an easy route (he's a smart guy), and I would not feel comfortable having him go first and hang the draws on an outside route.  He has no understanding in which direction gates should face, what needs to be extended.  This commentary also will be part of his "ready to learn more". And I will have another partner there belaying me, because belaying outside, even for a sport route, is in my view, significantly different than belaying in the gym. And when I do let these "beginner" people belay me, my philosophy, even with strong, talented gym climbers, is that I am soloing.  These people who are outside for the first time, or the fourth time, are not partners.  They are incompetents and their life is in your hands.  You are a guide service.  In term of teaching them everything to do with anchors, yes I would be comfortable doing that.  But anchors are the deadliest aspect of sport climbing.  It's not something I trust to anyone I consider an outside novice.

Maybe my pushback on your thread is that you posted it in the beginners forum.  Where the barely competent climbers who don't know what they don't know, and are taking their friends out and "teaching" them climbing may be getting information. I don't want to help people learn to climb via the internet.  Go out with a mentor or take a class.

Sam M wrote:

I hate cleaning top rope anchors to lower, and just seeing the belay strand running straight to the ground, nothing clipped between the belayer and myself at the anchor. It's a bit spooky.

Majority of sport routes you should be able to clean by passing a bight through the rings/links, tie a fig 8 on said bight, and clip it to your belay loop via a locker.

That way you're never off belay.

Consider the above w hooks. Then send a beginner up cleaning all draws on the way. Someone dear to you? 

J L wrote:

Majority of sport routes you should be able to clean by passing a bight through the rings/links, tie a fig 8 on said bight, and clip it to your belay loop via a locker.

That way you're never off belay.

I've been taught the bight method, but personally I don't like it.

In practice where I am, a lot of anchors are ring bolts, U bolts or quick links with a small opening, and I find it a pain in the arse to squeeze a bight through. And I don't really want to be struggling or forcing anything or getting frustrated or distracted when I'm cleaning.

The bight doesn't necessarily save you - there was an accident down here where someone (who was extremely tired) threaded the bight, but then got confused after some messing about and forgot to tie the figure 8, they clipped *directly into the open loop*. The friction held them while testing it, but when they unclipped and fully weighted it to lower, the rope end pulled through the anchor bolts and they fell to the ground.

So my standard method is, after going in hard, to pull up some rope through the master point and tie the 8 on a bight and clip to it with a locker *first*, then untie and thread just the end of the rope.

It's exactly as safe as the bight method, but easier IMO.

Sam, thanks for sharing — sobering stuff! Definitely agree that for places where quicklinks or other lower off hardware with smaller openings are used, the traditional method or your alternative is more convenient.

J L wrote:

Majority of sport routes you should be able to clean by passing a bight through the rings/links, tie a fig 8 on said bight, and clip it to your belay loop via a locker.

That way you're never off belay.

Here is modification to anchor cleaning that is safer than the traditional approach, I think the same as SamM method, just more words

1. Climber gets to the anchors. Rope, be it top rope or lead, is clipped to the anchors.
2. Climbers anchors her/him-self using some tether
3. Grabs rope between tie in and anchor, pulls two, or three armfuls, puts some sort of on-a-bight knot on the loop, clips this loop to BELAY loop using locker. 

At this point recap -
Climber is at the anchors, tethered in. Additionally, rope is going from belayer->anchors->belay loop, secured with locker. There is a lot redundancy.

4. Climber unties the rope, removes it from the tie ins. Climber is still secured to the rope - rope is secured to the be belay loop with locker, it goes from belay loop to the anchors, to the belayer.

5. Climber threads free end of rope through whatever is available on the anchor - chain links, bolts, etc.
6. Climber ties her/him-self in again.

Recap -
Climber is tethered in.
Rope is secured to the climber via belay loop, knot on bight, locker.
Free end of climber's rope is threaded through anchors, tied back in to harness.

7. Climber removes locker from the belay loop, undoes the knot on a bight 

At this point, rope must go from belayers tie ins, to the anchor, to the belayer. 

8. Climber asks for hard take, makes sure that tether is loose and rope is fully supporting her/his weight.

9. Climber untethers, asks for lower.

Alec Baker wrote:

Something I try to stress with my partners is to weight test any new system before removing the old one. Many cleaning and rappelling accidents I read about might have been prevented with some variation of this. 

Incidents like this are also why I dont like shaming people over TRing through fixed hardware. 

Condolences to everyone involved. 

This is the critical piece. Every time I transition from one critical attachment to another I make certain to weight the new system -- while the old system is still in place -- and only once I've visually verified it all works will I remove the old tether. I will usually say aloud to my partners and myself the new setup to make double extra sure it all is correct and looking good before removing the old anchor.

Changing anchors is a critical transition that leaves from for deadly error, and deserves serious caution. Every climber has stories of stupid things they have done or forgotten during transitions where only luck preserved them from seeing the same consequences as Faye did. My deepest condolences and heartfelt sympathy.

amarius wrote:

Here is modification to anchor cleaning that is safer than the traditional approach, I think the same as SamM method, just more words

Yeah, I think we're talking about the same method. Like this.

(Except it would be more bomber with PAS for climber, and a proper master point for the rope clip in point, eg quad/sliding x/opposite-and-opposed-quickdraws/girth-hitch and so on, whatever)

Thank you Ilya for posting this. It should be part of every basic climbing curriculum. Unfortunately it isn't yet, and it sounds like your core point is being ignored or overlooked by at least half the people responding here. Sigh.

Maybe this analogy will help (?): When I lead a steep sport climb with modern bolts and a simple chain anchor, I can safely thread the chains by going in direct to just one of them with a single quickdraw. The reason this is okay is that I still have my draws clipped below me and a long fall onto my last draw isn't going to kill me. But for the 99% of top ropers who still arrive at the anchor with NOTHING clipped below them, there is no such redundancy and any catastrophe at the anchor transition will probably be fatal.

Clipping the last one or two protection quickdraws properly onto the belayer's side of the rope instead of onto their harness as they finish the route fixes the transition problem and would have prevented the tragedy at Sand Rock.

ilya f wrote:

you led a climb, and have a beginner clean gear and break down the anchors and get lowered. when they get to the last draw before the anchors, have them leave it on the hanger, unclip it from the strand they're on and clip the strand going to the belayer. then they can proceed and do whatever you instructed them to do at the top. if all is good, they clean that draw on the way down. in the event they screw it up, they will take a lead fall onto that last draw.

It isn't always going to be possible, but in many cases the leader, when being lowered, can make this transfer, clipping the last draw on the route onto the strand above them which is the lowering strand.  Then the second just has to clean it on the way down.  When doable, isn't all that bad an idea for everyone, since it isn't only beginners who mess up.

Eric Hirst wrote:

Thank you Ilya for posting this. It should be part of every basic climbing curriculum. Unfortunately it isn't yet, and it sounds like your core point is being ignored or overlooked by at least half the people responding here. Sigh.

No one is ignoring or misunderstanding the core point.  No one is arguing against the technique.  I've been using that technique routinely for at least 30 years.

Maybe this analogy will help 

"if only we had fastened the seat belt before we let the ten year old drive the car, she wouldn't have died."

Clipping the last one or two protection quickdraws properly onto the belayer's side of the rope instead of onto their harness as they finish the route fixes the transition problem and would have prevented the tragedy at Sand Rock.

Brain injuries have killed any number of people over the years (mostly unhelmeted but some helmeted) who took lead falls and impacted rock. An unexpected fall by a beginner who has no learned experience in how to fall is arguably the most dangerous kind. The focus on the technique highlighted by Ilya as the key error in judgment and practice that would have prevented the fatality is what is being argued against. I counted 4 errors in the Sand Rock incident. Not clipping the belayer's side of the rope (done as Rich suggests by the more experienced climber, not the beginner), was the least egregious one. 

One more time: no one is suggesting the technique is not a great tool for the toolbox. That's the last I will say in this thread since other threads dissecting the accident have explained in detail what should/could have been done differently at Sand Rock.