The Ethics of Noise

I'm genuinely curious about how other climbers consider the noises we bring to the outdoors, and whether anyone has sincerely considered the ethics of noise. I don't expect any more concensus on this topic than on crag dogs. However, some questions I hope folks would weigh in on:

Is there a point at which climber noise rises to an unacceptable level? Can we roughly define that threshold? 

Do factors such as style of climbing, land management status (e.g. wilderness vs. private), number of parties figure into your calculus?

To the veteran climbers out there: Have you observed a cultural shift around noise?

Does a loud cohort at the crag present safety concerns that might not be obvious to those transitioning from plastic?

Do we have experts who can weigh in on effects of climbing-related noise on wildlife?

Is there a minimum grade at which it's acceptable to scream bloody murder?

Are there benefits (aesthetic or otherwise) to a noisy crag that might be lost on curmudgeons like myself?

Anecdotal, N=1 observations from POV me after ~30 years of climbing:

-the noisiest contingent seems to consistently be psyched younger folks enjoying their newfound sense of freedom in the vertical world, including (but not limited to) forms of self-expression that feel really new and unique to this life phase: radio/tape deck/CD player/Bluetooth speaker/tinny phone, depending on the era.  In the same way that one's personal first teenage romance drama feels like a unique historic event, folks in this phase don't really consider their effect on other climbers, wildlife, neighbors, potential access etc. as a potential negative as the all-conquering righteousness of their exuberance overwhelms any sense of consideration.  See also: tutus, lycra, Halloween costumes, giant posses, CC block break at Indian Creek.  This is distinct from try-hard sounds, as below: 

- I can't recall the name of the crag, but it's a sport area atop Linville Gorge and was closed to climbing, as pithily related to me by to Ron Dawson, because nearby residents "got tired of hearing people yelling 'fuck!'

- Is there a cultural shift? Doubt it.  Some people are self-centered, and some of these are loud.  I think it's been ever thus.  Perhaps the OP is now entering the phase of objecting to the noise, rather than causing or appreciating it.  

- Folks running around Hueco blasting Bad Religion or whatever definitely did not endear climbers to the Texas State park rangers BITD, and look what happened to that place.

- I can't think of a strong upside to climbers yelling all the time, but I don't really climb in griz territory either

One small way to help this issue is to reinforce better behavior through pranks. If anyone at the crag yells down: “HEY, Am I leaving is this up?!?!”

I just give a “hell ya! Thanks!” Regardless if I know them or not and I invite you all to as well.

Saves the whole crag from this exchange:

Belayer- “Uhhh, idk lemme check. Ayo Jimmy. Jimmy! Hey Jimmy!!!”

Jimmy- “wat?”

Belayer- “You doing this one?!?”

Jimmy- “uhhh was is fun?”

Belayer- “maybe. HEY GREG, was it fun!?!?”

Greg- “ya it had a handjam!!”

Jimmy- “oh I can’t jam”

Belayer- “you can’t jam?!?”

Greg - “it’s not hard!!”

Jimmy- “how hard was the jammy bit??”

Greg- “5.8 tops!”

Jimmy- “nah take it down”

Greg- “did he say take it down?!?”

Belayer- “ya!!”

Greg- “okay ive never cleaned before but OfF BeLaY!!!”

Adam bloc wrote:

Belayer- “maybe. HEY GREG, was it fun!?!?”

Greg- “ya it had a handjam!!”

Jimmy- “oh I can’t jam”

Belayer- “you can’t jam?!?”

Greg - “it’s not hard!!”

Jimmy- “how hard was the jammy bit??”

Greg- “5.8 tops!”

Jimmy- “nah take it down”

Flashbacks... Horrible flashbacks,... yeah maybe we should be a little quieter as a group. 

Definitely safety concerns if you can't hear your partner over the sound of speakers blasting. There's also the safety concern of simply being less aware of your surrounding environment. Opps couldn't hear that rattle snake that just bit me because I had to have my tunes playing. 

Personally I also don't like it at all. I get outside to be with nature and I climb for similar reasons. It is wild to me that there are people who want to bring a giant speaker with them outside. This is true for climbing, hiking, whatever. If you want to listen to something while you're in outside then for me its an earbud in one ear and nothing else. Quite for everyone else and you retain situational awareness at least a bit.

Mainly if there is a busy crag I just avoid it anyway since regardless of any other factors, as apogee says more humans more noise.

Overly exaggerated try hard noises are the worst, they don't make you look or sound like Chris Sharma and Adam Ondra, most everyone is wondering why you're screaming at the top of your lungs on xyz route. Don't get me wrong,  some amount of grunting is a part of trying hard,  but being the loudest monkey doesn't make you the Alpha. Also screaming fuck at the top of your lungs so everyone will look at you just makes you sound like you're a toddler with a temper tantrum. 

Logan Peterson wrote:

I'm genuinely curious about how other climbers consider the noises we bring to the outdoors, and whether anyone has sincerely considered the ethics of noise. I don't expect any more concensus on this topic than on crag dogs. However, some questions I hope folks would weigh in on:

Is there a point at which climber noise rises to an unacceptable level? 

Yes, incessant screaming, whether that's beta, or nonsense, is a bit much.  Bluetooth speakers I want to smash into little bits every time I encounter one.  Less so when bouldering as long as it isn't ska or some auto-tuned bullshit.

Can we roughly define that threshold? 

No.  People can't even agree that getting bitten by a fucking dog is the owner's fault when the dog is off-leash and in a public area.

Do factors such as style of climbing, land management status (e.g. wilderness vs. private), number of parties figure into your calculus?

Yes.  Larger groups and less experienced groups are going to make more noise.  As a matter of fact, larger groups are almost always less experienced, because once you're experienced, you realize in multi-pitching, 2 is the magic number, and with cragging, three to a group tops.  This is just climbing economy of time.

To the veteran climbers out there: Have you observed a cultural shift around noise?

Yep. Started climbing in '09 and never saw a bluetooth speaker.  Once Honnold appeared on 60 minutes, every prick that's ever tried on a harness thinks that every crag is his own personal playlist concert hall.

Does a loud cohort at the crag present safety concerns that might not be obvious to those transitioning from plastic?

Maybe?  I don't really think it's a safety concern 95% of the time.  I think it's an entitlement issue.

Do we have experts who can weigh in on effects of climbing-related noise on wildlife?

You don't need experts.  Studies have been done and that information is available to anyone with a modicum of knowledge on how to get effective Google search results.

Is there a minimum grade at which it's acceptable to scream bloody murder?

No.  I know people that utter involuntary screams when they're at their absolute limit.  Everyone has different physical limits.  Try hard noises I don't mind.  Think of the tennis player Monica Seles.  I don't even mind joking and banter.  What I do mind is unnecessary screaming or chaos accompanied with incessantly barking dogs and shitty music coming from a tinny-sounding piece of shit bluetooth speaker.

Are there benefits (aesthetic or otherwise) to a noisy crag that might be lost on curmudgeons like myself?

If you're there to socialize, not to climb, and you're just waiting for your turn to hang on a top rope for 28 minutes straight while making a total of 3 hard moves, then yes, there's a ton of benefit.  If not, then no.

Logan Peterson wrote:

I'm genuinely curious about how other climbers consider the noises we bring to the outdoors, and whether anyone has sincerely considered the ethics of noise. I don't expect any more concensus on this topic than on crag dogs. However, some questions I hope folks would weigh in on:

Is there a point at which climber noise rises to an unacceptable level? Can we roughly define that threshold? 

Do factors such as style of climbing, land management status (e.g. wilderness vs. private), number of parties figure into your calculus?

To the veteran climbers out there: Have you observed a cultural shift around noise?

Does a loud cohort at the crag present safety concerns that might not be obvious to those transitioning from plastic?

Do we have experts who can weigh in on effects of climbing-related noise on wildlife?

Is there a minimum grade at which it's acceptable to scream bloody murder?

Are there benefits (aesthetic or otherwise) to a noisy crag that might be lost on curmudgeons like myself?

Already did this one:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112160830/yelling-at-tahquitzsuicide

But to comment further, all the hootin’ and hollerin’ is obnoxious and distracting and thus “unethical”.

This is a side to the noise debate that I’ve never heard get mentioned, but setting routes ground up with a hammer vs on top down with a power drill.

I set a route on granite in our area on the opening weekend of hunting season (not in purpose just happened), so there were a bunch of people below us in the surrounding meadows. We were well above them elevation wise.

We set this route ground up, with a hammer. It took about 9 hours to drill 6 bolts. Takes forever because you’re run out above the bolt and really don’t want to fall and are super balancey with no hands and it’s not like you can take full or even a quarter swing with the hammer in a position like that.

It was hours and hours of “tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink” echoing for miles around the valley. I can’t imagine how annoying that was for everyone in the area. And probably scaring away the deer too I’m not sure I’m not a deer scientist.

So anyways, not trying to start a different debate here, but the noise pollution is definitely a factor in my view on ground up hand drilling vs top down with a power drill. 

Logan Peterson wrote:

Is there a point at which climber noise rises to an unacceptable level? Can we roughly define that threshold? 

If partners can't hear each other's commands and people on the ground can't hear "rock" -- unacceptable. Sadly, not objective or definable.

Do factors such as style of climbing, land management status (e.g. wilderness vs. private), number of parties figure into your calculus?

Style: irrelevant. Number of parties: irrelevant. Wilderness: make as little noise as possible. Private: Respect the landowner's wishes, erring on the side of STFU. 

To the veteran climbers out there: Have you observed a cultural shift around noise?

If twelve years counts: yes, more people are bringing music. No change in the ratio of people are throwing wobblers. 

Does a loud cohort at the crag present safety concerns that might not be obvious to those transitioning from plastic?

"Rock!"

Is there a minimum grade at which it's acceptable to scream bloody murder?

My projecting grade.

Are there benefits (aesthetic or otherwise) to a noisy crag that might be lost on curmudgeons like myself?

No. Although a consistent hum of chatter is easier to overlook than silence punctuated by the occasional scream.

Those who feel the need to bring bluetooth speakers to the crag, just grab a pair of Shoks and rock out to your heart's content without disturbing the peace.

Unless you're listening to my current try-hard song, in which case, turn that scheiBe up:

“Yep. Started climbing in '09 and never saw a bluetooth speaker.  Once Honnold appeared on 60 minutes, every prick that's ever tried on a harness thinks that every crag is his own personal playlist concert hall.”

Sigh, Jake…you sweet innocent babe. Why, there were no Bluetooth speakers in ‘09. However, I do remember plenty of boom boxes in the ‘90s. And, don’t get me even started about the anorexic screaming banshees with Tourette’s at places like Rifle. 
There have always been self-absorbed bros broing at the crag. 

I figure we have the same percentage of bros broing, but the crags are undoubtedly more crowded than, say, 15 years ago.  So you're more likely to run into a loud bro at a previously quiet crag.  And the only way to hear your own noises is to make them louder than everybody else's -- so crowded crags have gotten louder as crowds increase.

Crowded crags, young men braying, dogs biting; you all make it sound so wonderful!

I was once at a crag where a girl was screaming so  loud and continually it sounded like she was giving birth. Everyone at the crag (most including myself were out of view) stopped and just looked at each other “like wtf is going on?”

When it finally stopped someone yelled out “it’s a boy!”

Then it started again she was top roping a popular route, and it lasted for over 20 minutes.

More and more the try hard screams seem to annoy me, even more are the tantrums afterwards. I little Passat is ok, I get it, but it seems to be getting way over the top on a lot of areas.

I tend to just walk a bit farther to find some peace and quiet. Climbers don’t like walking, at least most of the ones that scream and carry speakers.

If you're not making noise you ain't having fun... bring the boom box and the guitar and let out some yells as we pull on that 5.10. 

I've started to appreciate the folks who climb with radios.

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Crowded crags, young men braying, dogs biting; you all make it sound so wonderful!

Dont forget drones, and feces, ego and bravado, and witnessing terror, and the odds of getting pulled into leading a rescue.

We old farts (I'm coming up on 49 years of climbing) are used to when we were a ragtag group of misfits back in the day.....few and far between.....and we liked it quiet.

But now we're so old, our hearing is shot, so WE'RE making the noise...."I SAID YOU'RE ON BELAY, MORON!!!!!"

Dont forget drones, and feces, ego and bravado, and witnessing terror, and the odds of getting pulled into leading a rescue.

Dang Stiles I'm almost jealous. All we had were ego and bravado, and never in equal proportion! And the routes were uphill in both directions.

saign charlestein wrote:

Climbers don’t like walking, at least most of the ones that scream and carry speakers.

Anxious barking “good crag” dogs are the loudest thing i’ve heard at a crag