Onsight vs flash vs redpoint

Hey all. If you can't tell by the title, I'm very new to climbing and struggling to get some of the language surrounding flashing, onsighting, etc in a roped context. To my understanding, no one really "onsights" boulders (at least indoors), and that term seems more reserved for ropes. On that note, at what point does a flash or onsight become a redpoint? After a fall? After having belayer take and resting? Specifically when it comes to toproping, where you can take and rest without technically "falling..." 

Overall not really that important in the grand scheme of things, but curious to hear how more experienced folks think about it. cheers :) 

Plenty of explanations online: https://gripped.com/profiles/onsight-and-flash-what-do-they-mean/

The short of it is that nobody really cares as long as you're honest. Some folks may disagree with you - most people leave quickdraws hung on bolts between lead attempts but some purists will place them on lead each time.

And yes as soon as you weight the rope on your first try you've lost the onsight/flash and can only redpoint on subsequent attempts. These terms are all generally reserved for lead climbing - few people care to make these distinctions for top-roping. However, you might set yourself a goal to top-rope a route clean, without any takes/falls, before trying to lead it.

JFGI

Jack Nemitz wrote:

Specifically when it comes to toproping, where you can take and rest without technically "falling..." 

-1st, none of these terms really apply to toproping. They all apply to style in how you climbed while on lead. -

You only "Send" (on top rope or on lead) if you start and the bottom and climb to the top without taking, resting on gear, or pulling on quickdraws. In almost ALL climbing circles these terms only apply to climbing lead, not on top rope (though a few limited exceptions exist). All of these terms are differences in style, "how you sent".

• Onsight - sent first try with no knowledge (maybe other than the grade of the climb). You walk up to a route, look it over, and climb it clean first try. 
• Flash - you sent first try but had knowledge of the climb. You watched somebody else climb it or had detailed knowledge about the route and crux. (Boulders are only ever "flashed" just because you can touch most of the holds from the ground, so nobody onsights a boulder)
• Redpoint - (See Rotpunkt on youtube) You finally sent the route after trying it a few times. Lets say on your first attempt you had your belayer take, or you fell. You then lower back to the ground, pull the rope and try again. If you succeed then you get to say you redpointed the route. 
  • For sport climbing - nobody really cares if you were hanging the draws on the wall as you climbed. You can still claim a redpoint and only people on mountainproject will bicker about it
  • For Trad Climbing - mostly, you only redpoint if you also place the gear on lead. 
• Pinkpoint - really only used for Traditional climbing (climbing with nuts and cams). You place all the gear you need on the route, either by rappelling the route or by climbing it and taking. You then climb the route from the ground, clipping the gear that you already placed on the wall. (Famously Ron Kauk pinkpointed Magic Line, and his son Lonnie Redpointed it years later, improving on the style). 
• Toprope - you sent the pitch on toprope. You never rested on the rope. For most single pitches this doesn't really count. On a bigwall / multipitch climb sometimes this happens, because your partner led the pitch and then you followed them up on a toprope. (you could Onsight a pitch on Toprope, but really just say I sent on toprope)
• Fell/ Hung. You tried the route and fell. Maybe you even got to the top, but it doesn't really count as a "send" because you hung on your gear. (You are allowed to hang on gear at the belays on multipitches, just not while climbing.)

Thanks for the info James and Mark, super helpful and provides a lot of information I just couldn't find on google, or reddit, or even on this forum. Thanks for taking the time to type it out so cleanly, means a lot to a novice. John, appreciate the wildly helpful suggestion to "just google it", and looking forward to whatever other riveting discourse you'll bring to the forum. Cheers all! 

James M wrote:

• Onsight - sent first try with no knowledge (maybe other than the grade of the climb). You walk up to a route, look it over, and climb it clean first try. 
• Flash - you sent first try but had knowledge of the climb. You watched somebody else climb it or had detailed knowledge about the route and crux. (Boulders are only ever "flashed" just because you can touch most of the holds from the ground, so nobody onsights a boulder)

A corollary to these principles is that you can rob someone's chance at onsighting a route by giving them beta (information) about it. This is one principle underlying a piece of climbing etiquette, which is to never give unsolicited beta. 

For example, if you see someone tying in for a climb, and you tell her, "there's a hidden jug up above the fourth bolt!" or even, "keep it together, the holds get better!" then you have taken away her opportunity to onsight that route because now she has beta (even if it's wrong). And since everyone only gets one chance, in their entire life, to onsight a given route, it can be pretty annoying to have someone take that from you.

So now you know the answer to a question you didn't ask.

Nkane 1 wrote:

A corollary to these principles is that you can rob someone's chance at onsighting a route by giving them beta (information) about it. This is one principle underlying a piece of climbing etiquette, which to never give unsolicited beta. 

For example, if you see someone tying in for a climb, and you tell her, "there's a hidden jug up above the fourth bolt!" or even, "keep it together, the holds get better!" then you have taken away her opportunity to onsight that route because now she has beta (even if it's wrong). And since everyone only gets one chance, in their entire life, to onsight a given route, it can be pretty annoying to have someone take that from you.

So now you know the answer to a question you didn't ask.

also super helpful! I have had some experience with being on the receiving end of this - even though it was intended well - and would hate to take that away from someone. Grateful for the guidance! 

Jack Nemitz wrote:

Thanks for the info James and Mark, super helpful and provides a lot of information I just couldn't find on google, or reddit, or even on this forum. Thanks for taking the time to type it out so cleanly, means a lot to a novice. John, appreciate the wildly helpful suggestion to "just google it", and looking forward to whatever other riveting discourse you'll bring to the forum. Cheers all! 

I did a cursory search for “onsight redpoint flash” 0 results . Welcome to the forums, where everyone’s questions have already been asked, answered, and debated to within an inch of Tradi’s life

John Clark wrote:

I did a cursory search for “onsight redpoint flash” 0 results . Welcome to the forums, where everyone’s questions have already been asked, answered, and debated to within an inch of Tradi’s life

Well, the question pertained a little less to definitions and more to the differences between disciplines - which the articles I've found (and including quite a few on this Google link) don't quite touch on. I decided to go out on a limb and ask some wiser and more experienced folks for their take, as folks I've been lucky enough to interact with have been kind enough to share their wisdom - again, as indicated in the original post. But! I have my answer, and you got to drop your fun little link, so we're both winners! Appreciate the time! 

Jack Nemitz wrote:

John, appreciate the wildly helpful suggestion to "just google it", and looking forward to whatever other riveting discourse you'll bring to the forum. 

Haha, you'll fit in just fine here. Just gotta show a little backbone with some of the more cantankerous denizens of the site. Yes, the answer could be easily Googled, but some of us need the break from work.

I award you one saucy baby gote:

Other "point" terms of note:

Brownpoint - send on TR

Headpoint - send a tricky-to-protect (=dangerous) trad route after figuring out the gear using several TR / rappel / pinkpoint attempts. Here's an example of a route where my friend and I employed the headpointing process on pitches 2-4 (but Honnold was bold enough to onsight).

Deadpoint - not a sending term, just lunging for a hold, but not an all-points-off-dyno.

Greenpoint - climbing a sport route on gear

Tredpoint - red pointing but on top rope

Fritzpoint - sending with a blue ball but and a baby goat on the harness.

Bluepoint - your highest grade belay of an on sight 

Greypoint- For old climbers. When you redpoint a route without remembering any beta or even if you have previously climbed the route (20 years ago or just last season).

MIchael Plapp wrote:

Greypoint- For old climbers. When you redpoint a route without remembering any beta or even if you have previously climbed the route (20 years ago or just last season).

Yes! Also known as the Alzheimer's Onsight. What's the age cutoff for the applicability of this send status? Asking for a friend ...

Yes! Also known as the Alzheimer's Onsight. What's the age cutoff for the applicability of this send status? Asking for a friend ..

I don’t remember.