Rams Horns as single point lower-off

Is it "safe" to use Ram Horns as single point lower off, or should they be backed-up ? ///  Rams Horns seem to come in different curve styles, are there any circumstances in which a rope could "pop-out" of a single Rams Horn ?

Maybe if you stop on a ledge, get some slack and flick the rope enough. Don't do that.

There are instances of the rope coming out of a single Rams horn in Germany. Of course the sources are in German. 

Lots of ways to back it up. 

My personal risk tolerance: lowering thru a single rams horn doesn't bother me at all and I do it all the time. I generally back them up if someone is top roping thru them. 

My recollection is that the problem with ram's horns occurs when a leader is  linking pitches (or topping out on a cliff where normally one stops at the anchor), runs the rope through the ram's horn, climbs higher, then takes a leader fall. 

I'm going to guess that ram's horns don't meet spec on assorted standards (UIAA, CEN, CWA, international building code...). A new ram's horn anchor will be plenty strong but has less margin for degradation with aging.

dave custer wrote:

My recollection is that the problem with ram's horns occurs when a leader is  linking pitches (or topping out on a cliff where normally one stops at the anchor), runs the rope through the ram's horn, climbs higher, then takes a leader fall. 

I'm going to guess that ram's horns don't meet spec on assorted standards (UIAA, CEN, CWA, international building code...). A new ram's horn anchor will be plenty strong but has less margin for degradation with aging.

When the UIAA produced a revision of the standard some years ago ( it was rejected for other reasons) they included lower-offs and a test for rope capture security. The example used as an illustration was in fact the Ramshorn design and the strength proposed to be 15kN before rope release.

Quite why they have less margin for degradation (compared with what?) escapes me.

Bobby Hutton wrote:

I generally back them up if someone is top roping thru them. 

Safety issue aside, why would anyone top rope thru them?

Most of the rams horn setups I've seen have a 2nd bolt a bit lower with a steel captive carabiner as backup. That gives me the feel goods, because it also involves a 2nd bolt. If it's a rams horn on a pair of equalized chains connected to 2 bolts then I'd prob be fine without backup, but I haven't seen that setup. 

Not a great anchor setup either way for a multipitch anchor so concerns of climbing above it should be nil. 

My recollection is that the problem with ram's horns occurs when a leader is  linking pitches (or topping out on a cliff where normally one stops at the anchor), runs the rope through the ram's horn, climbs higher, then takes a leader fall.

Whoa, doesn't seem smart. Sort of blown away by the notion of someone thinking that's ok.

Some images from the Bolting Bible to help visualize some different setups mentioned above:

K Go wrote:

Most of the rams horn setups I've seen have a 2nd bolt a bit lower with a steel captive carabiner as backup. That gives me the feel goods, because it also involves a 2nd bolt. If it's a rams horn on a pair of equalized chains connected to 2 bolts then I'd prob be fine without backup, but I haven't seen that setup. 

I would feel much "safer" climbing with biner back-up, unfortunately the specific crag (Rigaud in Quebec) doesn't have any backup opportunities close to clip into .... and the single point rams horns were installed in the 90's ...now 25-30 yrs old.

I've used ramshorns quite a bit as a single lower-off point and have great confidence in them. If you visualize the catastrophic (and I think very unlikely) scenario that it snaps, it would snap at the wear points. This would happen on one of the sides first, leaving the rope still around another side. Sure, the remaining side might make it hang wonky, but it would catch you and you'd be backed up. This is enough redundancy in my eyes. 

That being said, I'd love the idea challenged. Perhaps I'm thinking about it all wrong. Maybe team HowNOT2 can test it.  

This is a non-issue. There are thousands of single pitch climbs all over Europe with lower-offs like the first picture above. If you just lower off and don't climb above the anchor there is nothing to worry about. If for some reason you really must top rope through them, just leave one draw below the anchor clipped and tell the climber to clip it to the belayer's strand of rope going up.

Ian Dibbs wrote:

I would feel much "safer" climbing with biner back-up, unfortunately the specific crag (Rigaud in Quebec) doesn't have any backup opportunities close to clip into .... and the single point rams horns were installed in the 90's ...now 25-30 yrs old.

That they have been there for 30 years and the dead bodies haven't piled up tells you something.......

That you use "climbing" in this context tells me you are doing it wrong, they are a lower-off, nothing else. Put the rope in, have the belayer take your weight, unclip your tether and lower. Even the only accident I know of (possibly the one Bobby alludes to though it occured in Austria) the ramshorn was actually being used outside it's intended purpose though no-one can explain how it occured apart from user error.

While I've lowered off hundreds of single ramshorns (my local area is set up this way) my recommended setup is as in the first photo and what I install on all my routes.

As to how they fail, they unroll under load and release the rope. The models with a constant bend radius like the Salewa version this occurs around 15kN, the version I make has a tighter final bend and gets about 20kN (we have to cheat with the testing as not many climbing ropes will actually survive this). There is a third design  from Kong with thinner bar (8mm) and a welded top bar, these will hold 25kN but can have problems with cracking at the weld and can't easily be changed/installed.żuu

Josh Cook wrote:

That being said, I'd love the idea challenged. Perhaps I'm thinking about it all wrong. Maybe team HowNOT2 can test it.  

Ask and ye shall receive 

For what it's worth Ryan and Bobby(?) seem to be fairly confident and casually talk about top roping through them. Their reasoning is that once it's weighted it's essentially a closed system. Is it? You decide.

Edit: haha I just realized Bobby replied to this thread yesterday. I'm in the company of experts already  

Ian Dibbs wrote:

I would feel much "safer" climbing with biner back-up, unfortunately the specific crag (Rigaud in Quebec) doesn't have any backup opportunities close to clip into .... and the single point rams horns were installed in the 90's ...now 25-30 yrs old.

I've lowered off  the ramshorns at Rigaud plenty of times, and they've never bothered me -- always seem safe enough.  They are a bit unusual as a choice in this area, but more common in other areas, so I understand your concern with something unusual.  Even at 20-30 years old, they don't look particularly worn, either.  Of course,  I wouldn't choose to TR through them (without a backup), but I generally avoid TRing through any fixed gear.

David Gibbs wrote:

I've lowered off  the ramshorns at Rigaud plenty of times, and they've never bothered me -- always seem safe enough. 

Seem safe but.... I was told (and it looks like) the Rams Horns at Rigaud were "home-made" by a well known 90's Rigaud climber at his machinist job ... and not by a gear specific manufacturer, paranoid maybe but , I feel uncomfortable trusting my life to 30 yr old  "home made" Rams Horns, even if they have held up well so far.

Hey Chouinard started in a garage  

Jim Titt wrote:

While I've lowered off hundreds of single ramshorns (my local area is set up this way) my recommended setup is as in the first photo and what I install on all my routes.

Good set up.

Have you seen one of these?

We used it to protect a traverse on a canyon in Spain a couple months ago.  Pretty nifty.  Not sure it'd be great as a rap anchor but..nice for pulling rope through on a traverse.

Ian Dibbs wrote:

Seem safe but.... I was told (and it looks like) the Rams Horns at Rigaud were "home-made" by a well known 90's Rigaud climber at his machinist job ... and not by a gear specific manufacturer, paranoid maybe but , I feel uncomfortable trusting my life to 30 yr old  "home made" Rams Horns, even if they have held up well so far.

  

Seems like you didnt like the answers you got. You got reasurance from very respected sources.  Maybe you should contemplate this a bit on your own.

If you would trust a single carabiner to lower off, trust those horns. There is a way to make anything fail, rings are unquestionably the most bomber but as always, the weakest point in your system is you, then your rope. 

Brian in SLC wrote:

Good set up.

Have you seen one of these?

We used it to protect a traverse on a canyon in Spain a couple months ago.  Pretty nifty.  Not sure it'd be great as a rap anchor but..nice for pulling rope through on a traverse.

There's a few designs for protecting via ferrata and scrambles with just a rope, I've made some for Italy in the past. Traditionally they are the old pigtail design and a lot of places just use swing hooks, they are easy as there is no real wear on them so making them easy to change isn't a factor.