Aid Climbing System: Adjustable Daisies or Alfifi + Dynamic Tethers/Lanyards

Sufficiently seasoned trad climber here getting into aid climbing and doing my homework on systems and developing questions on what I should buy. Right now, and it seems like there 2 systems that stand out to me as being efficient and safe. There hasn't been that much out there directly comparing these two (unless there is and please point me to that), so figured I'd start a discussion here.

1) Using two adjustable daisies with a regular fifi hook for French free sections in the style of the VDIFF course. With this style, I specifically want to know: are you really that much farther from the wall and lose that much reach compared with the alfifi? Other pros/cons?   

2) Alfifi with dynamic tethers on the aid ladders in the style of Jeremiah in the Big Wall Bible or Kirkpatrick. With this style, I specifically want to know: why have an adjustable lanyard at all, rather than just some dynamic rope with a knot at the end? If your weight is always on either the alfifi or the aid ladders, the tether seems to only play a role in case your top piece falls (either during or after bumping your alfifi). I have read comments that mention using them on roofs or traverses, why is this their use case? Other pros/cons?

What would you suggest to someone starting to look at aiding big walls?

Alfifi with no daisy at all is my vote. Just don’t drop the aider. I was initially skeptical but after trying it I’ll never go back. Search mark hudon’s posts about this

You want adjustable daisies because you adjust them all the time on a wall. It's your PAS at the anchor, it's how you rap with the pigs, it's how you jug and it's how you tether your daisies (if you haven't been brought to the Dark Side by Mark Hudon). You want different lengths for all those things. Life on a wall is hard. Don't make it harder. 

I've led on daisies before VDiff style. It's fine. Actually the only pitch I've led on El Cap I used this method for and PtPP even said I moved surprisingly fast. Now no offense to the good doctor, but perhaps Pitch a Day Pete isn't the best authority on aid climbing speed =p

If you don't actually aid much then not having more shit on you is a nice bonus. However it adds one more very slow step to every aid move over an alfifi. If you plan to aid much at all the alfifi wins hands down. 

I'll let more experienced wall climbers answer the rest of your questions. 

You're not far from me. We could go to a bolt ladder or some place with cracks and you could try out both systems if you'd like. 

+1 (actually +10) for Alfifi

+1 for daisies unattached to ladders while leading (except for hook moves, especially if going into a free move above the hook)

+1 for still having adjustable daisies for the above reasons such as personal anchoring, jugging, etc. 

I currently use the Petzl Evolve Adjust. Seriously consider the Edelrid Switch Adjust as they are fully releasable under load unlike the Petzl. Is there a dual arm version? It doesn’t appear so. Also, is the length long enough? If I was to redo my setup, I might custom make a dual arm switch adjust with a piece of dynamic rope. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

+1 (actually +10) for Alfifi

+1 for daisies unattached to ladders while leading (except for hook moves, especially if going into a free move above the hook)

+1 for still having adjustable daisies for the above reasons such as personal anchoring, jugging, etc. 

I currently use the Petzl Evolve Adjust. Seriously consider the Edelrid Switch Adjust as they are fully releasable under load unlike the Petzl. Is there a dual arm version? It doesn’t appear so. Also, is the length long enough? If I was to redo my setup, I might custom make a dual arm switch adjust with a piece of dynamic rope. 

I have heard a dual arm Edelrid is in the works, no idea on release, maybe spring 24?

Russian aid system!

Wrong forum.

When you post in the correct forum you will get more replies from people who have used these systems, and faster.

-Petzl evolve adjust with 8mm cord swapped in. Keep them long and don’t mess with the length for easy/low angle aid, much more efficient. Use a regular fifi for top stepping.

-For actual hard aid, same setup as above but with Alfifi. Adjust daisies during aiding as necessary. 

Christian Black wrote:

-Petzl evolve adjust with 8mm cord swapped in. Keep them long and don’t mess with the length for easy/low angle aid, much more efficient. Use a regular fifi for top stepping.

-For actual hard aid, same setup as above but with Alfifi. Adjust daisies during aiding as necessary. 

Is this what you mean?

https://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/petzl-evolv-adjust

I'm a newbie aid climber so want to confirm the product.   

What's the reason for swapping to 8mm?  Do you have a photo like to see what knots you use.  Does it work better than adjustable daisies or alfifi when you need to loosen up under tension?

RWPT wrote:

Is this what you mean?

https://www.telemark-pyrenees.com/petzl-evolv-adjust

I'm a newbie aid climber so want to confirm the product.   

What's the reason for swapping to 8mm?  Do you have a photo like to see what knots you use.  Does it work better than adjustable daisies or alfifi when you need to loosen up under tension?

Yep that’s the right product! You swap to 8mm cord because it’s way easier to slide them one handed. The cord it comes with is somewhat stiff to use. About 13ft of 8mm cord is the right length. I do an overhand in the center to make a small loop to girth bitch to my belay loop. Stopper knot at the ends.

You can tie a small piece of cord through the top loop that helps you unweight them under tension as well.

You don't need tethers for your daisies if you are using an Alfifi. Have you ever dropped a cam? You probably won't drop your ladders either (exception: hook moves/other easily moved pro as said above). You will want the daisies + alfifi for traverses/roofs, but even then I prefer to clip/unclip the daisies as necessary rather than faffing with moving one ladder + daisy over the other and making a tangle. Protip: on a traverse, start (and implicitly end) all moves with 100% of your weight on the alfifi.

But you'll need/want adjustable daisies for all the other aid climbing stuff as said before. Just keep them permanently on your harness and shorten/replace the cord to your max reach.

Christian Black wrote:

-Petzl evolve adjust with 8mm cord swapped in. Keep them long and don’t mess with the length for easy/low angle aid, much more efficient. Use a regular fifi for top stepping.

I've been using the system that Christian describes as well as rigged my daisies to look exactly like his and it is by far and away my favorite system. The only difference is I girth hitch my daisy loop to my tie in points and put my fifi on my belay loop.

I like having both the petzl evolve adjust and an alfifi. I find the alfifi critical in moving efficiently and with minimal energy expenditure. I do not like to mess with the petzl adjust while leading, I just keep them maxed out long. I find the alfifi is quicker and less of a hassle to use than adjustable daisies. For anything on the wall not leading I find the petzl adjust to be very convenient. Makes finding a comfy belay position easier, makes me more confident changing over systems and jugging, and makes rapping quickly and safely much smoother.

In summary I consider an alfifi a must have and a petzl evolve adjust to be a nice-to-have.

Kyle MacKrell wrote:

I've been using the system that Christian describes as well as rigged my daisies to look exactly like his and it is by far and away my favorite system. The only difference is I girth hitch my daisy loop to my tie in points and put my fifi on my belay loop.

Ah good call with fifi on the belay loop and daisies on hard points. I think that’s the better way. 

Christian Black wrote:

Ah good call with fifi on the belay loop and daisies on hard points. I think that’s the better way. 

I tie my petzl evolve into a bowline on a bite on the hard points rather than a straight girth hitch. Keeps the hard points from being constantly cinched tight. 

For clarity here’s how I set mine up. I just switched it out to 7mm cord today and it operates even nicer and is less bulky. I like having the tail tied off to the end because it triple shortens it when you stow it away for free climbing with minimal dangles.

I haven’t tried the bowline on a bight harness attachment, seems like it could work well. My only concern would be you wouldn’t be able to cinch as close as possible on a piece. With the overhand and girth hitch through the hard points you can get the carabiners really close to you. 

Christian Black wrote:

Ah good call with fifi on the belay loop and daisies on hard points. I think that’s the better way. 

depending on how tall you are you might find that the fifi on the belay loop doesn't get you close enough in to top step well. Being a very tall human I can get away with it, but some can't; you just have to experiment and see.