Questions re: developing a local cliff on private property for a private guiding service

Hello Mountain Project, 

The opportunity to develop and guide at a local cliff on private land has presented itself and I have been grappling with the logistics and legal ins&outs of developing climbing routes on private land intended for an exclusive, for-profit guiding service. I am also seriously grappling with the ethics of that situation but I don't feel this is the time/forum to discuss ethics, and I'm more interested in discussings legals/logistics on this topic at this time.

The first thing that comes to mind is that I would need to have a lengthy discussion with a lawyer regarding liability and insurance for route development and fixed hardware installation (bolts), as this is well outside my normal insurance/liability knowledge for run-of-the-mill guiding. Assuming the legal team at this private property has the property owners' best interests in mind (and not mine), and they would probably sue the independent contractor that developed the routes without a second thought if something were to happen, I do have reservations about discussing this with the lawyers of the property owners. I remember in the early days of the Enormocast there was someone who marketed themselves as a climbing lawyer but I'm not sure how to connect or if they are even practicing law anymore.  

Having done loads of new route development I know I am able to complete the task of safely developing routes to set them up, but I feel liability and legal specifics need to be discussed and clarified beforehand. This may include me creating an LLC for myself for developing routes and guiding and also liability insurance, to protect myself and my earnings from my main, full-time job. And I need to make sure I have the time available which would be required to get this project rolling, which I won’t know for certain until I’ve spent more time scoping out the cliffs and coming up with a plan for how to proceed (which invests even more time in something that I don't know I feel good going through with).

I've discussed the business model with the property owner, and without knowing what the demand looks like, it is really tough to come up with a predicted profit margin. I would likely be asking for hefty compensation for this, since I've already sunk HOURS into just contemplating this, and there are so many what-ifs (what if someone gets injured and says it was because of bolt placement, what if someone goes up there and hacksaws the bolts leaving only 5% of the bolt's diameter intact and someone whips on it, what if 40 years from now the piece of rock fails and the bolt is no longer good and someone whips on it, what if demand isn't high and the property owner feels that my preparation of the routes and guiding service is the reason for them losing money and demands compensation for those losses?)...

I appreciate any and all (on-topic) input on this situation - has anyone ever been in the situation of being tasked with developing routes on a cliff on private land before for a for-profit organization? There are no official certifications or real standards for route development that I'm aware of, everything I've learned has been trial and error and internet knowledge, so how does that factor in? How much would be a fair amount to request for compensation for this kind of task? (To begin with, I feel 2 beginner and 2 intermediate routes need to be developed, and each route will take probably +/- 12 hours between cleaning and equipping with protection. Does anyone have any insight on things to discuss with a lawyer / what I should do in terms of talking with a lawyer / forming an LLC? I'm also not opposed to abandoning the concept all-together with how much time/energy this will require. Or I could offer my services to the capacity of being a consultant and advising them on what to do, but I don't know what that would look like legally, either.

For more context, most of the cliff is single pitch with some sections at about 60 ft and most sections about 90-120 ft. There is also part of the cliff which is about 200 ft, and one 100-foot section which looks world-class and would offer routes in the 5.11-13 range. Lots of lower-angle terrain with cracks and features and holds, pretty good rock quality throughout.

Thank you! Climb on--

Same post in 4 different areas.. superbot

Hank, I’m not a bot, just a dude trying to find some answers in 4 different sub-forums which may offer some insight, but I appreciate you looking out for the community/forum. Also full disclosure made a throwaway to keep my identity and the location secret, but I’ve been a climber for 11 years and I understand this looks fishy….all I’m asking is people’s opinions though :)

This may not be helpful but there was/is a similar operation running in central north island of NZ called Castle Rock (I think). Might be worth reaching out to them for any insight they might have. 

I think the ethical discussion would be the better discussion here and paying a professional lawyer for an hour of their time would be the better source of legal advice than a forum full of strangers/trolls/dirtbags/computer jockies that don't actually climb.

I have a bit of experience with private land that is made available for unsupervised free public use in WA state and I know that it changes as soon as money is collected or someone supervises even enough to enforce common-sense rules.

All of your concerns are valid and worth digging into further.  Document everything you do and point to legal standards and industry best practices and manufacturer guidelines that cover the work you do.  Make sure you have evidence that you are following the best practices as much as possible and have an airtight reason to deviate from any best practices.  This all becomes part of your defense in case of litigation.

If it's only guided and only beginner/intermediate use then you can probably do everything you need to do with toprope anchors only as long as they are accessible safely.

Climber Climber wrote:

I am also seriously grappling with the ethics of that situation but I don't feel this is the time/forum to discuss ethics, and I'm more interested in discussings legals/logistics on this topic at this time.

"I always do the moral thing except when it's hard or causes me pain, then I do the selfish thing. I am still a moral person though."

pathetic. money is your god

here, you'll find this helpful:

https://tinyurl.com/4ed5fdj4

Like others said, talk with a lawyer.  I assume you would need a lawyer to write up a waiver for the climbers to sign.  Talk to private businesses that have developed routes on private property and difficulties they had getting things going.

I don't think this is a question about ethics as much as it is about insulating yourself from potential liability concerns...

If you are serious about doing it, it's easy enough to start an LLC and sign a contract between the LLC and the land owner, stipulating the scope of work, costs etc. it's no different than the companies out there who install via ferratas on private land for guiding...

I re-call hearing about it this place, which is on private land and they charge a fee to climb there. Maybe if you reach out to them they could give you some input on their experience? 

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/114060981/em-robinson-bluff

Climber Climber wrote:

Hello Mountain Project, 

The opportunity to develop and guide at a local cliff on private land has presented itself and I have been grappling with the logistics and legal ins&outs of developing climbing routes on private land intended for an exclusive, for-profit guiding service. I am also seriously grappling with the ethics of that situation but I don't feel this is the time/forum to discuss ethics, and I'm more interested in discussings legals/logistics on this topic at this time.

The first thing that comes to mind is that I would need to have a lengthy discussion with a lawyer regarding liability and insurance for route development and fixed hardware installation (bolts), as this is well outside my normal insurance/liability knowledge for run-of-the-mill guiding. Assuming the legal team at this private property has the property owners' best interests in mind (and not mine), and they would probably sue the independent contractor that developed the routes without a second thought if something were to happen, I do have reservations about discussing this with the lawyers of the property owners. I remember in the early days of the Enormocast there was someone who marketed themselves as a climbing lawyer but I'm not sure how to connect or if they are even practicing law anymore.  

Having done loads of new route development I know I am able to complete the task of safely developing routes to set them up, but I feel liability and legal specifics need to be discussed and clarified beforehand. This may include me creating an LLC for myself for developing routes and guiding and also liability insurance, to protect myself and my earnings from my main, full-time job. And I need to make sure I have the time available which would be required to get this project rolling, which I won’t know for certain until I’ve spent more time scoping out the cliffs and coming up with a plan for how to proceed (which invests even more time in something that I don't know I feel good going through with).

I've discussed the business model with the property owner, and without knowing what the demand looks like, it is really tough to come up with a predicted profit margin. I would likely be asking for hefty compensation for this, since I've already sunk HOURS into just contemplating this, and there are so many what-ifs (what if someone gets injured and says it was because of bolt placement, what if someone goes up there and hacksaws the bolts leaving only 5% of the bolt's diameter intact and someone whips on it, what if 40 years from now the piece of rock fails and the bolt is no longer good and someone whips on it, what if demand isn't high and the property owner feels that my preparation of the routes and guiding service is the reason for them losing money and demands compensation for those losses?)...

I appreciate any and all (on-topic) input on this situation - has anyone ever been in the situation of being tasked with developing routes on a cliff on private land before for a for-profit organization? There are no official certifications or real standards for route development that I'm aware of, everything I've learned has been trial and error and internet knowledge, so how does that factor in? How much would be a fair amount to request for compensation for this kind of task? (To begin with, I feel 2 beginner and 2 intermediate routes need to be developed, and each route will take probably +/- 12 hours between cleaning and equipping with protection. Does anyone have any insight on things to discuss with a lawyer / what I should do in terms of talking with a lawyer / forming an LLC? I'm also not opposed to abandoning the concept all-together with how much time/energy this will require. Or I could offer my services to the capacity of being a consultant and advising them on what to do, but I don't know what that would look like legally, either.

For more context, most of the cliff is single pitch with some sections at about 60 ft and most sections about 90-120 ft. There is also part of the cliff which is about 200 ft, and one 100-foot section which looks world-class and would offer routes in the 5.11-13 range. Lots of lower-angle terrain with cracks and features and holds, pretty good rock quality throughout.

Thank you! Climb on--

You’re overthinking it. Get waivers made for each entity involved and get the guide service insured. Depending on state law the land owner is not liable.

Since it is being developed for commercial use, I think that the landowner would be facing potential liability in most states—-though waivers could help ( never absolute guarantees, though).

Alan Rubin wrote:

Since it is being developed for commercial use, I think that the landowner would be facing potential liability in most states—-though waivers could help ( never absolute guarantees, though).

Laymen's question. How is this different than a building owner leasing  to a climbing gym enterprise? Since you said "in most states" I'm guessing that land is viewed differently than buildings. 

Laws on these issues vary from state to state. Sometimes a lot. It would help anyone wanting to give you internet advice to know where you are thinking of doing this.

And in California, at least, Alan Rubin is right: California law makes a landowner immune from liability if they allow people to do recreational activities on their land. That immunity evaporates pretty quickly when it changes to the landowner profiting from such use.

article on private land liability re Colorado 14ers.

https://coloradosun.com/2023/07/27/landowner-decalibron-14ers-access/

Horseshoe Canyon Ranch near Jasper, AR is also a privately owned property that employs people as guides/route maintenance, and charges a small day use fee for climbers.

The Robinson Bluff folk seem super friendly, my interactions with them have been great.

This may not be helpful but there was/is a similar operation running in central north island of NZ called Castle Rock (I think)

That's 15 minutes from me. The landowner no longer operates an adventure guiding concern, but the crag is still used by 3rd-party outdoor education providers as well as recreational climbers. NZ is vastly less litigious than the USA, you cannot sue for personal injury (the coroner may have things to say however), and the governing legislation for operators is workplace safety related. I think very little is likely to be relevant to the OP's situation.

> .. since I've already sunk HOURS into just contemplating this ..

Respectfully, if you feel you need to be paid for thinking about how you can make a profit from the situation then this might not be the right venture for you.

To address your post, though.  There are ample examples of this situation already in place (I would add Nelson Rocks, and possibly even Skytop into the mix).  Look at those.  See if you can copy the model.  Then, copy the model.  If you expect this to be an ongoing income stream, don't expect to break even for a long time.  If you expect to be paid sooner, don't expect to be paid for longer.

Wasn't there some private crag in Arizona which had paid developers?

Jason4Too wrote:

I think the ethical discussion would be the better discussion here and paying a professional lawyer for an hour of their time would be the better source of legal advice than a forum full of strangers/trolls/dirtbags/computer jockies that don't actually climb.

I have a bit of experience with private land that is made available for unsupervised free public use in WA state and I know that it changes as soon as money is collected or someone supervises even enough to enforce common-sense rules.

I can tell you that NH is like this, if someone hurts themselves on your land, and it's free for public use, they cannot sue for damages. That all goes out the window once you charge money.

The owners of the polar ice caves near rumney NH were looking into doing this, allowing people to climb on their private commercial property, but caned the idea because insurance costs were crazy high.

Also a sole proprietor LLC will provide exactly 0% coverage for you if you get sued. 

Imagine this is an amusement park, or one of those adventures ziplines. If someone gets hurt on the property, they're going to sue. Insurance must be very expensive for them, and they're not leading rock climbs.