...

Marc801 C wrote:

Again, it's not so much the strength but the sharp edges that remain.

Do you still have the hooks with this wear pattern?

Desert Rock Sports wrote:

If I made sure to only top rope through the same 2 personal aluminum carabiners of mine until they needed to be retired, again and again, instead of the random rotation of whichever quickdraws I have left, or which 2 lockers I decided to put on my quad, or I'm lowering off and use the steel mussys because how often do most of us actually camp out and run laps on a route?... If all the wear was going to 2 of my personal aluminum carabiners, I could certainly need to replace them every year or 2. Sending $14 to an org to buy climbtech mussys is way more efficient use of $14 than the $14 to $40 every year or two of aluminum carabiners for just me and a partner. $14 to an org gets probably 2.5+ climtechs and benefits far more people than just me and my partner for far far far more pitches than we would ever hope to get in a year. Sure of course, there are plenty of routes where I will need to use my own gear, because I get on a fair amount of trad, and not a perfect comparision as I do a fair amount of TR solo. To be expected... but cost per lifetime... yeah steel wins, wins big time.

As paradoxical as it may seem at first... if we all pitch in a bit towards steel for community use, and are fine with top roping through it, we all save in terms of our personal $ towards replacing our personal aluminum in the long run.

This economic analysis might make sense if everybody contributed to the ASCA, but that is far from the case.

By my rough calculations, 0.5% of outside climbers are members of the Access Fund, and the ASCA receives even fewer contributions.

Asking freeloaders to toprope through their own draws seems pretty reasonable to me.

By your argument, since I contribute at least $14 to the ASCA, it would be ok for me to TR through glue in bolts. 

Wouldn't matter if I wear them out and some volunteer needs to spend time and effort to replace them.

Victor Creazzi wrote:

Do you still have the hooks with this wear pattern?

I don't have any hooks - not entirely sure what you're asking. However, look at the edges of the wear groove on these:

Marc801 C wrote:

I don't have any hooks - not entirely sure what you're asking. However, look at the edges of the wear groove on these:

From Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition

Could these be refurbished with a battery powered dremel? Take the edge off. Light enough to clip to a harness. 

Marc801 C wrote:

I don't have any hooks - not entirely sure what you're asking. However, look at the edges of the wear groove on these:

From Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition

Ah, I got you confused with Mark E Dixon. Thanks for the pictures though.

It appears that those hooks were installed with the gates opposed and the sides shown facing each other. I would expect that the 'outside' faces would have more rounded wear patterns. Still a safety hazard in the case of the rope somehow being rigged wrong I suppose.

I'd like to go at some hooks like those with a dowel and a piece of W/D sandpaper to see what it would take to round the sharp edges as there is still gobs of strength left in those hooks. The idea is that a dowel and sandpaper weighs nearly nothing as opposed to new hardware and a wrench in a pack, and the time investment is likely about equal

Mark E Dixon wrote:

By your argument, since I contribute at least $14 to the ASCA, it would be ok for me to TR through glue in bolts. 

Wouldn't matter if I wear them out and some volunteer needs to spend time and effort to replace them.

Top roping through glue in bolts is not equivalent to top roping through mussy hooks. Not even close. It’s not what’s being discussed here. They aren’t easily replaced like mussy hooks.

Don’t change the subject.

Personally, I’ve been using Edelrid bulletproof carabiners to top rope through and a locking one for rappels. Plus the Mammut Bionic ATC. All steel wear surfaces. They last much longer but they still don’t last forever. The rappel locker is certainly wearing heavily after a couple years of frequent use. Definitely worth the expense over how many aluminums would have already gone bad.

I support more climbers taking it upon themselves to maintain their areas.

I think those mussy hooks shown above are a perfect example of something replaced well before needed. I wouldn’t worry about those “sharp” edges one bit. But the fixing solutions like sanding seem like a good idea. I’m into that.

I’ve never heard that idea before which is another reason I think these discussions are good for the community. 

Mark E Dixon wrote:

This economic analysis might make sense if everybody contributed to the ASCA, but that is far from the case.

By my rough calculations, 0.5% of outside climbers are members of the Access Fund, and the ASCA receives even fewer contributions.

I've seen estimates on the number of US climbers from 2.5 million to 14 million, but the number from the AAC is 7.5 million.

ASCA reports gross receipts for 2021 of $204,000.  Using the most conservative number of 2.5 million, that means the average climber in the US is contributing 8 cents per climber annually to fund all the bolt replacement and anchor replacement they organize and provide gear for.  Which tells you that only a tiny percentage of climbers actually puts their money where their mouths are when it comes to this pursuit they all proclaim to love so much.  Just ballparking that an average contribution to the ASCA might be $25, that means only about 8000 climbers in the US are contributing to this non-profit.  

I don't know about the rest of you folks but when I think about the millions of climbers who enjoy developed routes who have never contributed one cent to climbing or 1 hour of their time to developing and maintaining climbing resources, I get a bit steamed.  There is nothing inappropriate about educating other climbers about not toproping through any anchors.  

ASCA still has almost $6000 in matching funds available for donations this year in their "lower off" fundraiser. The time to donate is NOW.

So yeah, how about the freeloaders of you out there pass up a couple of lattes and send some money to the ASCA - and use your own steel biners for toproping.   I personally rap off the mussy's if it's safe and not awkward, but I'm not expecting anybody else to do that.

Access Fund and ASCA are not the only sources of money going to hardware replacement, its merely the most organized sources. Plenty of competitions and local events with raffles to raise money, donations to local organizations with or without joint Access Fund membership, etc... and at least with the competitions, a lot of those competing can be primarily gym climbers... what irony... gym climbers unknowingly funding outdoor hardware maintenance. There's also direct donations to people doing rebolting work, people who get out and just put mussy's on something without asking or telling anyone (a donation of monetary value even if never declared), etc... While some of the big two organizations funds and time do seem to go to mussys for the most stupidly popular routes, the vast majority seems like its fixing poor bolting hardware choices of earlier generations. PS instead of SS bolts, short and shitty bolts, star drive, etc...

The Edelrid Bulletproofs are awesome and I use them. They do still wear. Longer lasting than aluminum, wayyyyy lighter than full steel. More expensive than either. Just 2 good full steel lockers can easily be > 1lb and given enough top roping, ie guide use, they will wear out in a few years, have seen that too. Maybe the future is like synthetic ruby, sapphire, or tungsten carbide matrix coated and polished on steel. Maybe Edelrid will do it lol. Just don't drop them or knock them around or you will have more than microfractures to worry about.

My point is, its easy to make the point that if the freeloaders, even a very small portion of them, donated to steel, it would save them money in the long run... and if they are freeloading cheapskates as we say, they should want to save money... so it shouldn't be that hard to convince enough of them to donate to make a difference... and "enough" would be a very small percentage considering the cost per life comparison.

I think most of us understand that rings, especially those welded to bolt hangers or glue ins don't make economic sense. They don't wear evenly as was once thought, very quickly they stop spinning... at some point someone needs to go up there with a angle grinder (or wilderness area, heavy bolt cutter) just to remove it, at which point all they can do is use a quicklink to chain, ring, or mussy. If you want to promote rapping, go quicklink(s) or quicklinks and chain from the start instead of rings... but for the price of a ring you may as well just go mussy and get far more life and value out of it... but the economic argument in favor of mussys gets better.

Pressure = force/area. Higher pressure = faster wear = quicklinks, rings, chain. Lower pressure = slower wear = fat mussy. You get much more metal, its hardened, and with the higher surface area, lower pressure, it will wear slower.

I can't believe that I'm seeing this debated. Unless you're lowering the last climber, use your own anchor materials. If you're not knowledgeable on how to build an anchor - go with somebody experienced and take a class to reinforce the concepts. If your whole climbing group is too cheap to buy anchor materials - stay in the gym. 

There's no acceptable excuse for this from my perspective. It's so simple and so cheap to build a (non-trad) top rope anchor. A sling and 4 lockers costs next to nothing especially if you split it between you and your partner. 

Cosmic Hotdog wrote:

I can't believe that I'm seeing this debated. Unless you're lowering the last climber, use your own anchor materials. 

Thanks for the chuckle. This is de rigueur for MP forum topics concerning permanent protection and anchors.

At the end of the day, it comes down to safety. The easiest, least number of steps option will save the most injuries and deaths. If every single climb on the planet had mussy hooks and everyone top roped their followers through them the number of accidents due to improper anchor cleaning or transition to rappel incidents would drop to nearly nothing.

Anything else raises the chance of injury. I don’t support raising chances of injuries. Particularly when the people in mind are the ones with the least age, experience, know how, knowledge, skill, etc.

anyone WRITING on this thread undoubtedly has enough experience to set up a rappel but the folks that are reading it or the folks who will never hear of it are more likely to benefit from increased safety more than we are.

I support whatever causes single pitch climbing to be safer for EVERYONE.

I have never donated to the ASCA, but I have put my own time and money into anchor maintenance and I’m happy to keep doing so regardless of whether others do or not.

I want to climb the routes, so I will make sure they are safe to get down from.

If I find unsafe anchors, I will go back as soon as I can and fix it or I will report it and some other generous soul will. That’s fine by me. Pay it forward for the next person.

Don’t complain about community resources. Just improve the situation. Leave it better than you found it.

This seems to be already the case. Dangerous anchor situations are not the norm. So clearly more maintenance goes in than wear goes out.

We’re doing fine 

Marc801 C wrote:

I don't have any hooks - not entirely sure what you're asking. However, look at the edges of the wear groove on these:

From Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition

Can anyone give an explanation to why the wear generates these "sharp" edges? I would expect much more rounded edges. Even the edges on the "back side" appears to be sharp instead of rounded. I have seen similar wear "in the field", so this picture is not an anomaly.

Edit: I can understand this wear pattern if the surface material of the steel is hardened in some way.

Patrik wrote:

Can anyone give an explanation to why the wear generates these "sharp" edges? I would expect much more rounded edges. Even the edges on the "back side" appears to be sharp instead of rounded. I have seen similar wear "in the field", so this picture is not an anomaly.

Edit: I can understand this wear pattern if the surface material of the steel is hardened in some way.

Without having the pieces in hand it's hard to determine the back side condition, but I expect it is much more rounded. Case hardening would probably contribute to sharp wear and that possibility should be explored (good thought Patrik). It seems logical that two hooks side by side would have rounded wear on the outside faces and sharp wear on the inside faces. 

I saw a fatal  rope cut  accident report where a heavily projected sport climb had worn carabiners on the draws. The biner at the crux had rounded wear. The victim fell after clipping the previous draw but before clipping the draw that most people fell on. It was determined that the draw that held his fall had sharp wear from having the rope always perpendicular to the draw rather than the normal rounded wear of the biner that had caught the majority of the falls.  

Although my first sport leads were in places where you made and cleaned your own anchors, I now live in a place where most routes at local crags have mussys or steel carabiners and where it's not just okay but also expected that you just TR and lower off the fixed hardware. The local climbing coalition prefers it that way so there are fewer accidents, and the equipment receives regular inspection and maintenance.

It's really convenient, but I do worry that it teaches complacency, and I sometimes wonder what happens when locals who've never climbed anywhere else go to the vast majority of crags where our local practices are not the norm. I mean, I've seen a fair amount of confusion just when people get on one of the local routes not equipped with easy-lower hardware.

Interesting fringe case, I was recently in the NRG on a 3.5 Star Area classic a 5.7+ warmup, nice exposure generous holds, a great view etc.  My partner (first mentor) lead the route and then lowered off. I did not have any draws (my personal preference when climbing with strong partners when not cleaning, etc.  I lead the route with no event.  Once I topped out I didn't see any draws to lower off of.  He yelled up to just lower off of the mussys.  Not having the equipment or the desire to downclimb and lower off the top draw, i did lower off the mussy's.  Once on the ground he told me that because this was so often replaced by the NRAC (we both have given money FWIW) its okay to lower off for people in the middle of the parties but not top rope through.  I don't quite remember the rest of the justification.  

Basically the ethical question becomes How do you feel about people other than the last person lowering off the mussy's? 

FWIW, personally I am of the opinion to just haul up two extra draws and lower off them, for the people that are objectively stupid with them.  Granted I am not doing anything crazy and usually have preplaced draws from my projects or am cleaning.  

If the community deems a route worthy of Mussy hooks then the community will also replace them as often as they deem necessary.

If I climb a route with worn out gear, I’m going to either/both leave gear worthy of lowering (carabiners) and/or come back with proper replacement gear soon.

If everyone does this there is never an issue. The community resolves itself.

No one needs to downclimb to the last draw to lower. Just use the mussy hooks. That’s what they are there for. 

Alex Fletcher wrote:

If the community deems a route worthy of Mussy hooks then the community will also replace them as often as they deem necessary.

True enough, but it's still preferable for everyone in the group to TR and lower off of their own gear and have only the last person lower off the Mussys.

I’ve gotten in the habit the past few years of keeping at least one anchor set in my pack, this includes a quick link and a stainless steel closed eye carabiner painted a flat tan color.  I’ll buy a bunch through US Stainless a few times a year.  I can’t count the number of times I’ve replaced anchors now and it’s super easy to do.   If you aren’t into doing g FA’s and want to help the community this is a cheap and easy way to help.    They aren’t Mussy’s but I have yet to see any significant wear on any of the anchors I’ve replaced over the years.   

I have no problem with TRing/lowering on fixed anchors I have installed or regularly maintain