Is Outward Bound a real guide service?

I had an experience with some "guides" from Outward bound yesterday and am generally curious if they are legit.

Climbing at Smith yesterday, busy day/lots of people climbing. Took the kids down to a popular top rope area (rope de dope) for some chill family time. When we arrived, all of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides. There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on. My 7 year old daughter, as to be expected, cannot really climb at that level but was up for giving it a try anyway.

4 hours later, this group is still camped out on these easy routes. Getting a little annoyed at this point, I take my other rope over and start flaking it preparing to just lead this 5.9 next them to set up a top rope for my 7 and 12 year old. As I'm about to tie in, the "guide" tells me that I can't climb this route because they are setting up a top rope on it. I look up and see a dude walking toward it to drop a rope down. A little frustrated, I asked how long they will be on it because I had been waiting 4 hours to climb it as a courtesy to them but that courtesy had expired. He said they would get a couple people up there as quickly as possible. 2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between. I asked for 20 minutes of time to get my fam up this route which he refused. These "guides" seemed very unprofessional an unwilling to work with any of the other climbers there.

Is this acceptable guide behavior? Every time I have ran into guides, they are super cool and go out of their way to be pleasant and keep things moving smoothly and are absolutely professionals.  In hindsight, I should have talked to them right when we got there about our intentions.  Instead I chose the passive patience route.  Lesson learned.  

I'm of the opinion that nobody should be camping out on routes for 6 hours out of courtesy.  Especially guides.  Am I way off?

Short answer to your question: no, they're not really guides.  Technically they're instructors, but that's splitting hairs.  And no, that behavior is pretty unprofessional/not acceptable.  Camping on a route for 6 hours is fine as long as you're willing to bend over backward to share with anyone who asks.  What you ran into is the reality that OB and NOLS are entry level positions in the outdoor industry, so the competence and knowledge base of their field staff is typically pretty low.  (I say that as someone who worked for NOLS for 5 years)

You could find a way to lodge a complaint at the Odin Falls base (in Redmond) if you want to try and get your voice heard.  That's where they would be based out of and where their managers are.  I don't know what their contact info is, but I bet it's somewhere on the internet.

Idk this doesn’t sound like outward bound. Cragging at smith is a long ways from the “you’ve had a day of instruction, go figure out how to survive on your own” Experiential Education™ they specialize in. 

Spopepro O. wrote:

Idk this doesn’t sound like outward bound.

When I asked what service they work for they told me Outward Bound and I saw a 16 passenger van in the parking lot with their logo.  The kids definitely had no business climbing 5.9.  Never seen that much flailing on one route before!  

Your description sounds accurate!

Leon Wright wrote:

I had an experience with some "guides" from Outward bound yesterday and am generally curious if they are legit.

Climbing at Smith yesterday, busy day/lots of people climbing. Took the kids down to a popular top rope area (rope de dope) for some chill family time. When we arrived, all of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides. There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on. My 7 year old daughter, as to be expected, cannot really climb at that level but was up for giving it a try anyway.

4 hours later, this group is still camped out on these easy routes. Getting a little annoyed at this point, I take my other rope over and start flaking it preparing to just lead this 5.9 next them to set up a top rope for my 7 and 12 year old. As I'm about to tie in, the "guide" tells me that I can't climb this route because they are setting up a top rope on it. I look up and see a dude walking toward it to drop a rope down. A little frustrated, I asked how long they will be on it because I had been waiting 4 hours to climb it as a courtesy to them but that courtesy had expired. He said they would get a couple people up there as quickly as possible. 2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between. I asked for 20 minutes of time to get my fam up this route which he refused. These "guides" seemed very unprofessional an unwilling to work with any of the other climbers there.

Is this acceptable guide behavior? Every time I have ran into guides, they are super cool and go out of their way to be pleasant and keep things moving smoothly and are absolutely professionals.  In hindsight, I should have talked to them right when we got there about our intentions.  Instead I chose the passive patience route.  Lesson learned.  

I'm of the opinion that nobody should be camping out on routes for 6 hours out of courtesy.  Especially guides.  Am I way off?

Multiple threads in the same vein have popped up recently, “guides” is a loose term nowadays.

You’re not “way off” those people are assholes and it’s high time the climbing community pushes back on these so called “guide services” attempting to own the warm ups for their junk show.

First step is inquiring about their permit, they should have this present at all times, if not they should be reported to the ranger immediately. Tell them if so and they will quickly become so nice.

Namaste

Tradiban wrote:

First step is inquiring about their permit, they should have this present at all times, if not they should be reported to the ranger immediately.

Breaking my personal rule of not replying to Tradiban to correct this bit of misinformation for the masses.  Commercial use permits aren't required at Smith Rock. (specifically in the state park)  This isn't true for the adjacent BLM lands. (Marsupials, Zoo, etc)

Is Outward Bound a real guide service?

No

I am calling BS on the OP.

1. When you said "When we arrived, ALL of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides", you intentionally mislead the fact that only TWO routes, namely "5.5 North Slab Crack" and "5.7 How Low Can You Go?" were occupied by them. 

2. You said "There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on.", yes, "5.9 Shamu" is just to the right of it", but two other 5.9s "Immortal Beloved" and "Mini Bender" are right there. Why didn't you jump on these two 5.9s? 

3. You said "2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between". They have been climbing for 4 hours now, and now they got two people to get on the newly set up 5.9 in the span of two hours with 15 minutes in break. That is at least 45min of rope time per person in that two people. Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

This is a shitty climbers' problem. You and your kids are shit climbers. People got there before you and took up the easier two routes. You still had 3 other 5.9s there, but you didn't bother to climb the two other 5.9s, excluding Shamu, which is just to the right of How Long Can You Go?

It has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING whether Outward Bound is a guide or not. They are just a group of people who got there before you. You still had plenty of options at Smith Rock, you still have 

Night Flight 5.5
Easy Reader 5.6
Bunny Face 5.7
Lichen 5.7
Rebirth 5.8
Ginger Snap 5.8
Rodney's Chocolate Frosted 5.8
Cry Baby 5.8

Get over it. Don't be a liar. Grow some balls and don't be a weakass.

lol i think we just found "the guide"

curt86iroc wrote:

lol i think we just found "the guide"

Haha. I am not the guide. Look back at all my other postings and you'll know I am definitely NOT the guide. I am a "Don't be a shit climber" advocate.

Jake Foster wrote:

I am calling BS on the OP.

1. When you said "When we arrived, ALL of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides", you intentionally mislead the fact that only TWO routes, namely "5.5 North Slab Crack" and "5.7 How Low Can You Go?" were occupied by them. 

2. You said "There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on.", yes, "5.9 Shamu" is just to the right of it", but two other 5.9s "Immortal Beloved" and "Mini Bender" are right there. Why didn't you jump on these two 5.9s? 

3. You said "2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between". They have been climbing for 4 hours now, and now they got two people to get on the newly set up 5.9 in the span of two hours with 15 minutes in break. That is at least 45min of rope time per person in that two people. Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

This is a shitty climbers' problem. You and your kids are shit climbers. People got there before you and took up the easier two routes. You still had 3 other 5.9s there, but you didn't bother to climb the two other 5.9s, excluding Shamu, which is just to the right of How Long Can You Go?

It has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING whether Outward Bound is a guide or not. They are just a group of people who got there before you. You still had plenty of options at Smith Rock, you still have 

Night Flight 5.5
Easy Reader 5.6
Bunny Face 5.7
Lichen 5.7
Rebirth 5.8
Ginger Snap 5.8
Rodney's Chocolate Frosted 5.8
Cry Baby 5.8

Get over it. Don't be a liar. Grow some balls and don't be a weakass.

This is a douche take holy crap. 

OB should have shared. 

Jake Foster wrote:

I am calling BS on the OP.

1. When you said "When we arrived, ALL of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides", you intentionally mislead the fact that only TWO routes, namely "5.5 North Slab Crack" and "5.7 How Low Can You Go?" were occupied by them. 

2. You said "There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on.", yes, "5.9 Shamu" is just to the right of it", but two other 5.9s "Immortal Beloved" and "Mini Bender" are right there. Why didn't you jump on these two 5.9s? 

3. You said "2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between". They have been climbing for 4 hours now, and now they got two people to get on the newly set up 5.9 in the span of two hours with 15 minutes in break. That is at least 45min of rope time per person in that two people. Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

This is a shitty climbers' problem. You and your kids are shit climbers. People got there before you and took up the easier two routes. You still had 3 other 5.9s there, but you didn't bother to climb the two other 5.9s, excluding Shamu, which is just to the right of How Long Can You Go?

It has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING whether Outward Bound is a guide or not. They are just a group of people who got there before you. You still had plenty of options at Smith Rock, you still have 

Night Flight 5.5
Easy Reader 5.6
Bunny Face 5.7
Lichen 5.7
Rebirth 5.8
Ginger Snap 5.8
Rodney's Chocolate Frosted 5.8
Cry Baby 5.8

Get over it. Don't be a liar. Grow some balls and don't be a weakass.

OP said he was at Rope de Dope.  Those are all Dihedrals climbs which is NOWHERE near Rope de Dope.

Hot Take Jake!
Spraying down hard on a situation where you weren't even there for and calling OP and his kids shitty climbers is also rich.
At least they're not assholes.

Most every group I run into is more than willing to share climbs if they have a monopoly at a certain wall. Any group taking up routes for that long is lame, almost as lame as your post with UNNECESSARY CAPS and seriously condescending 'tude.

Jake Foster wrote:

1. When you said "When we arrived, ALL of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides", you intentionally mislead the fact that only TWO routes, namely "5.5 North Slab Crack" and "5.7 How Low Can You Go?" were occupied by them. 

You got me!  I made an error there.  On arrival, there were occupying the leftmost 3 routes which included North Slab Crack, How Low Can You Go, and Shamu.  That should have read the easier routes (5.5-5.9).  Immortal Beloved is in fact directly beside Shamu.  So close that I incorrectly thought it would be uncomfortably close to them.  That was a judgement call on my part as to be courteous to their group.  

2. You said "There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on.", yes, "5.9 Shamu" is just to the right of it", but two other 5.9s "Immortal Beloved" and "Mini Bender" are right there. Why didn't you jump on these two 5.9s? 

Mini Bender is located on the opposite side and was taken but that wasn't the point here.  It opened up soon after because a group climbed it and moved on.  The group next to them took over when they left.  Completely normal situation over there.  

3. You said "2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between". They have been climbing for 4 hours now, and now they got two people to get on the newly set up 5.9 in the span of two hours with 15 minutes in break. That is at least 45min of rope time per person in that two people. Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

Yeah, that seems absolutely crazy right?!  I'm not passing judgment on these kids' climbing it at all.  These routes may have been a bit too much for them but whatever.  With all the hanging and falling, it took them ages to climb these routes.  This is at no fault of the kids.  I'm completely guessing on exact timeframes here since I did not have a stopwatch and a notepad out documenting everything that was happening.  Was trying to have a chill day at rope de dope with the kids.  Since I can't verify timestamps here, I'll retract that and maybe it was 1.5 hours after that.  Again, I'm guessing but that is pretty close to the timeframe there.

It's worth mentioning that everyone else in that area that day were cool and also there for a good time.  Normal pleasant conversation, route swapping and generally having a chill day.  The name calling is pretty cool man, I hope your day gets better.  The kind words about my children are much appreciated

Jake Foster wrote:

Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

So much about this post is ridiculous, but I think this is my favorite part.  Someone taking 45 minutes per route on a 5.7 is probably hanging on the rope and/or unwilling to weight the rope on the way down.  (and yes, not infrequently with total beginners on a 5.7, it can absolutely take 45 minutes per lap)

Max Tepfer wrote:

So much about this post is ridiculous, but I think this is my favorite part.

Mine is the part where says literal children are "shit climbers"

Guided or not, it's just not cool to bring a large group and not be willing to share the routes. Guides, or OB instructors should be aware of how their large group appears to other climbers and be forthright about talking to anyone eyeing their routes and offer to let them work in.

Side note, as a guide, I have been in the situation before of waiting for a route to open and it taking much much much longer than anticipated when non-guides are trying to teach new climbers. In such situations it commonly is not as simply slow but workable as one would expect. When you have slightly experienced climbers trying to teach inexperienced climbers, they run into soooo many little issues that add up.

At the Hamlet @ Red Rock Canyon NCA, single 5.4 route that is the only route appropriate for this particular client I'm guiding that day. The 5.7s to the right would be too much, and were taken regardless. Other guide with me is handling the more experienced climbers in the group who are on the harder routes to the right. A couple is on the 5.4 and says they will be done with it soon. The experienced one leads it, builds an anchor, gets lowered. Much talking, snacking, being forgetful about stuff, checking phone. Unexperienced one ties in, realizes they need shoes, unties, walks to get shoes, comes back, snacks, puts on shoes, ties back in (this little detour alone must have been 15minutes). Top ropes route and is lowered. Much more chatting, idleness, etc... They pull the rope, and set it up for them to now lead it. Is instructed on how to lead, goes slow as one would expect. Makes it to the top. Experienced one is trying to yell them through how to set up to rappel. After a while, they realize that their anchor is still up there and retrieving it is too much for the inexperienced one, so lowers them. More chatting, idleness, snacking... Experienced one top ropes up to the anchor, and sets up to bring up the inexperienced one to show them in person how to set it up to rap... belaying off the harness redirected through the anchor. Inexperienced one is now up, and experienced one starts showing the setup to rap. Rope is all set and everything... then realizes they set it up through their anchor, not through the rings... it would be a pain to reconfigure it. Sends down the inexperienced one first so experienced one can take it all down and reconfigure to rap. Sends them down with an overly wrapped friction hitch, and they have never rapped before, so its going really, really slow... its at this point, probably 1.5h after they said that they would be done "soon", that I'm pretty fed up. I walk up (because there is a very chill walk up path) and suggest that the experienced one just raps and I will take down their anchor for them. Thank god they take me up on my offer.

Client got 2 laps, which was honestly more than we expected of this particular client who was very much a just want to try it once, scared of heights type client... who miraculously did really well with getting lowered... and that almost never happens. The other clients of the group that the other guide was managing probably got on 3-4 separate routes and 1-2 laps per route per client... can't remember how many other clients there were in this group, want to say like 2 others? The only way this actually worked out acceptably for this particular client, is that they were in zero hurry to actually get climbing and seemed quite content just chatting with and watching the other clients with them... but man. I was seriously getting worried that we would run out of time to actually get them on it before they had to leave for other engagements.

Not going to even go into all the shit this couple messed up on.

Max Tepfer wrote:

Breaking my personal rule of not replying to Tradiban to correct this bit of misinformation for the masses.  Commercial use permits aren't required at Smith Rock. (specifically in the state park)  This isn't true for the adjacent BLM lands. (Marsupials, Zoo, etc)

I was speaking in generalities but perhaps Smith needs a permit program and the best way to let that need be known is to tell the main office.

Jake Foster wrote:

I am calling BS on the OP.

1. When you said "When we arrived, ALL of the easier routes (5.5-5.7) were taken up by a large group with what looked like a couple guides", you intentionally mislead the fact that only TWO routes, namely "5.5 North Slab Crack" and "5.7 How Low Can You Go?" were occupied by them. 

2. You said "There was a 5.9 route just to the right of where they were climbing but as a courtesy, I backed off since it was very close to the routes they were flailing on. No problem, we'll do some 10a/b top roping until they move on.", yes, "5.9 Shamu" is just to the right of it", but two other 5.9s "Immortal Beloved" and "Mini Bender" are right there. Why didn't you jump on these two 5.9s? 

3. You said "2 hours after that, they had only gotten 2 people up the route and had like 3 more to go with huge 15 minute breaks in between". They have been climbing for 4 hours now, and now they got two people to get on the newly set up 5.9 in the span of two hours with 15 minutes in break. That is at least 45min of rope time per person in that two people. Unless these two people are really really strong, 45 minutes per route is IMPOSSIBLE. Given that they were just on 5.5 and 5.7, that is clearly not the case.

You are clearly lying.

This is a shitty climbers' problem. You and your kids are shit climbers. People got there before you and took up the easier two routes. You still had 3 other 5.9s there, but you didn't bother to climb the two other 5.9s, excluding Shamu, which is just to the right of How Long Can You Go?

It has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING whether Outward Bound is a guide or not. They are just a group of people who got there before you. You still had plenty of options at Smith Rock, you still have 

Night Flight 5.5
Easy Reader 5.6
Bunny Face 5.7
Lichen 5.7
Rebirth 5.8
Ginger Snap 5.8
Rodney's Chocolate Frosted 5.8
Cry Baby 5.8

Get over it. Don't be a liar. Grow some balls and don't be a weakass.

Your logic is....interesting

A pet peeve of mine is group size which seems to be part of the problem in this case.

I thought there were some Leave No Trace guidelines for limiting group size, but when I googled it only said "Visit in small groups when possible. Consider splitting larger groups into smaller groups ".  While I agree with this idea I wish some of our climbing and outdoor organizations were a little more specific and emphatic about group size.

How many is too many?  

Does the AAC, AMGA, Access Fund, NOLS, or other groups have specific guidelines on group size?