New Petzl belay device

Live Perched wrote:

Interesting point made in the video is the Neox needs about 20kgs of weight for the wheel to lock and for the device to act like a GriGri.

Is it possible that Petzl cannot certify guide mode because a child or pack weighing less than 20kgs is light enough that its weight would not lock the wheel in guide mode and the device would not arrest a fall?

And how much for the grigri?

Live Perched wrote:

Is it possible that Petzl cannot certify guide mode because a child or pack weighing less than 20kgs is light enough that its weight would not lock the wheel in guide mode and the device would not arrest a fall?

Petzl approves the Neox for guide mode. 

Unless I'm understanding the mechanism, it's not the weight as much as it is the friction generated and the angle of rope acting on the wheel. If he'd redone those tests with different thickness/fuzzy ropes and different angles there would be different results. One of my many gripes with the hard is easy videos, he says a lot without saying anything useful.

Slim Pickens wrote:

Petzl approves the Neox for guide mode. 

Right, but only with a hand on the brake strand.  I think it's a bit confusing / potentially dangerous that the same language is used for guide mode and lead belay.  Both are "always have a hand on the brake strand", but guide mode is much less reliable.  At least, that's my gut feeling having used a grigri to belay from above and comparing it to ATC style tubers or Gigi style plates.  I'd love to see some testing on the matter.  I haven't touched a neox yet, but it seems even less reliable that a grigri in guide mode orientation.

Eric Roe wrote:

I haven't touched a neox yet, but it seems even less reliable that a grigri in guide mode orientation.

It is. I used one for multipitch quite a bit over the weekend and won't be doing it again. Grigri wins for top belay, smoother (no racheting taking slack) easier to engage, and smaller/lighter. More control rapping on skinny ropes too.

Micah Hoover wrote:

It is. I used one for multipitch quite a bit over the weekend and won't be doing it again. Grigri wins for top belay, smoother (no racheting taking slack) easier to engage, and smaller/lighter. More control rapping on skinny ropes too.

Really not a fan of any sprung devices in guide mode. They don’t come up with me on multipitch. Now the Vergo? Gods gift to the earth for guide mode…

Jared E wrote: sprung devices

oh

Eric Roe wrote:

Right, but only with a hand on the brake strand.  I think it's a bit confusing / potentially dangerous that the same language is used for guide mode and lead belay.  Both are "always have a hand on the brake strand", but guide mode is much less reliable.  At least, that's my gut feeling having used a grigri to belay from above and comparing it to ATC style tubers or Gigi style plates.  I'd love to see some testing on the matter.  I haven't touched a neox yet, but it seems even less reliable that a grigri in guide mode orientation.

Which part of "always have a hand on the brake strand" is confusing or dangerous? The "hand" part? The "always" part? Keeping a hand on the brake strand is the standard for, um—*checks notes*—literally every device on the market. 

Slim Pickens wrote:

Which part of "always have a hand on the brake strand" is confusing or dangerous? The "hand" part? The "always" part? Keeping a hand on the brake strand is the standard for, um—*checks notes*—literally every device on the market. 

For nerds like us who waste time thinking about it and talking about it, it's not a problem.  Put yourself into the shoes of a newer climber, or a climber less engaged in this sort of geekery:

You hear, "Always keep your hand on the brake".  But then, you watch a video with Adam Ondra scratching his nuts and eating a granola bar, hands free.  You see super lazy habits at the sport crag.  A loaded grigri is essentially never going to magically un-cam itself, so people get away with it most of the time.

Then, you start multipitch climbing, and are told the same thing.  But your experience tells you that it's more of a cover-your-ass statement from petzl rather than a serious warning.  So you belay from above with those same lazy habits.  Those habits are probably mostly fine... (this is the step that I find "confusing and dangerous", since the same warning is given to a situation with a different risk profile)

Now you get the neox and are doing the same thing...

This is predicated on the idea that a top belay setup with a grigri is less reliable than an ATC, and less reliable than a grigri in lead belay mode, which again I don't have data for but anecdotally seems apparent to me.  I'd love to be corrected though.  If there's a failure mode, it's only a matter of time before someone finds it.  Often when reading accident reports, it seems wildly incompetent that someone could go from point A to decision B.  I think it helps to take it through one step at a time and try to empathize with the intermediate decisions and experiences that led to the end result.  It's only a matter of time before someone drops their second belaying with a neox -- hopefully they manage to step on the rope and lock it up before their partner hits the ground.

All in all this is a bit of a digression for the thread, oops

Eric Roe wrote:

For nerds like us who waste time thinking about it and talking about it, it's not a problem.  Put yourself into the shoes of a newer climber, or a climber less engaged in this sort of geekery:

You hear, "Always keep your hand on the brake".  But then, you watch a video with Adam Ondra scratching his nuts and eating a granola bar, hands free.  You see super lazy habits at the sport crag.  A loaded grigri is essentially never going to magically un-cam itself, so people get away with it most of the time.

Then, you start multipitch climbing, and are told the same thing.  But your experience tells you that it's more of a cover-your-ass statement from petzl rather than a serious warning.  So you belay from above with those same lazy habits.  Those habits are probably mostly fine... (this is the step that I find "confusing and dangerous", since the same warning is given to a situation with a different risk profile)

Now you get the neox and are doing the same thing...

This is predicated on the idea that a top belay setup with a grigri is less reliable than an ATC, and less reliable than a grigri in lead belay mode, which again I don't have data for but anecdotally seems apparent to me.  I'd love to be corrected though.  If there's a failure mode, it's only a matter of time before someone finds it.  Often when reading accident reports, it seems wildly incompetent that someone could go from point A to decision B.  I think it helps to take it through one step at a time and try to empathize with the intermediate decisions and experiences that led to the end result.  It's only a matter of time before someone drops their second belaying with a neox -- hopefully they manage to step on the rope and lock it up before their partner hits the ground.

All in all this is a bit of a digression for the thread, oops

Being new or "not engaged in geekery" doesn't excuse anyone from understanding their chosen belay device and how to properly belay with it. (I could rant on this for days but this is one of the biggest problems facing the future of climbing. It's not something that should be engaged with a casual attitude in regard to the technical aspects that mitigate risk, yet the cultural influence appears to be trying to diminish the seriousness of certain aspects like belaying.)

Ondra not belaying a hand on the brake strand doesn't mean the device is reliable, it means he's a shitty belayer. A loaded Neox vs a grigri is not likely to un-cam itself either. I can say this after belaying 20+ pitches with it so far. Just like a grigri though, you shouldn't take your hand off the brake strand when it's loaded. It doesn't require active braking to stay locked when loaded, but just like a grigri you're violating your duty as a belayer if you take your hands off without a backup. 

How much have you belayed from above with a grigri? It definitely needs minding to lock up reliably when belaying from above as well. There's a lot of *weird look* producing statements in what you've written here. A top belay setup with a grigri isn't more or less reliable than an ATC. Both require pulling rope through and tending the device. An ATC locks more easily and readily in guide mode than a grigri or a neox, but all three will lock up and all three explicitly are supposed to have a hand on the brake strand at all times. All 3 are 100% reliable if you do your job as a belayer. Your points don't make sense. 

You probably should stop speculating and actually use the device before making up all kinds of stuff to speculate about. You're saying quite a bit about a device you have no experience with and your conjecture is really inaccurate. I've had a Neox for several weeks and belayed a lot with it already. It's a great device, it has strengths and weaknesses in different areas than the grigri but the statements you've made aren't wholly accurate about any of the devices you've mentioned. 

Just saw interesting video of someone using the Neox for TRS. He claimed it caught 20 out of 20 times with just a small amount of weight on the rope. Points for bravery there but in a way it makes sense that it would work okay.

NateC wrote:

Being new or "not engaged in geekery" doesn't excuse anyone from understanding their chosen belay device and how to properly belay with it. ...

Look I don't really disagree much with the things you're saying.  But if you look around you see tons of people not following the simple instruction of "don't take your hand of the belay strand".  I can't tell if you think that doesn't happen regularly, or if you're just missing the nuance in my comments.  Maybe I wasn't clear.

Eric Roe wrote:

Look I don't really disagree much with the things you're saying.  But if you look around you see tons of people not following the simple instruction of "don't take your hand of the belay strand".  I can't tell if you think that doesn't happen regularly, or if you're just missing the nuance in my comments.  Maybe I wasn't clear.

I think you've missed my point. Manufacturers cannot concern themselves with misuse. Your posts seem to be making the point that the Neox is problematic because it doesn't dummyproof belaying. 

My point is that belaying isn't dummyproof. It's never going to be an activity where we can turn our brains off while we aren't leading. It's not Petzl's problem that people have abused the fact that the grigri catches too easily due to what many consider design flaw (hence everyone trying to make a "better" grigri). Neox is a device made for belayers who want to be engaged and not short-roping the leader. 

I see a lot of people drinking and driving too. I don't blame car manufacturers for people's negligence when the results of their drinking and driving materialize.

NateC wrote:

I see a lot of people drinking and driving too. I don't blame car manufacturers for people's negligence when the results of their drinking and driving materialize.

2028: Petzl shocks the world by releasing the first mostly-autonomous car. They insist that it's not self driving and you need to keep your hands on the brake strand wheel at all times, but nobody takes them seriously after seeing Adam Ondra on Youtube in the driver's seat with a beer in each hand

Peter Beal wrote:

Just saw interesting video of someone using the Neox for TRS. He claimed it caught 20 out of 20 times with just a small amount of weight on the rope. Points for bravery there but in a way it makes sense that it would work okay.

Peter, HC and I just used the loaner at G1, and first of all, it feeds like greased silk, which is a bit disconcerting. A small drag from the brake hand is enough to initiate lockup, and also any slight rope kinks; once under tension, it feels as solid as other grigri type units, but it will release to free-feed again the moment tension is relaxed. They absolutely advise against use for belaying from above off an anchor, i.e. Guide's mode, because the angle of rope entry provides zero drag, almost in pulley mode. I like the inline brake hand orientation, very similar to any ATC, but would be very leery of expecting automatic lockup when used in the nonchalant manner of many grigri users.
TR solo would really worry me, but lead solo is a non-starter - one thing even grigri users fail to take into account, is when you take a real fall, both you and the rope/device system are falling together, and the rope entering the device is "weightless;" if something applies drag to the brake side, it may initiate the clamping action, but otherwise a lot of rope can fly through. Everyone I've talked to who's done long lead soloing with even modded grigris have had at least one full failure, i.e. slid to the knot at the end before stopping. What the Neox improves upon in the grigri also makes it far worse to consider as a self-belay breakthrough.

Look, once you actually have this device in hand, you will discover there are 2 very eyebrow raising things it does.

First, yeah, you can feed slack forwards, backwards, slow, fast, by inches, yards, or miles....

(And yes, it will lock, even in "belayer dropped dead we're all gonna die hands free" mode that makes everyone think the grigri will save them better than even heavenly intervention at the apocalypse)

BUT

Number 2 eyebrow raiser?

It also UNLOCKS very very very easily.. Lock, unlock, lock, unlock, just use your hands to pull rope back and forth through it while standing on the ground shooting the shit, and find out for yourself.

Unweight the rope?

Unlock the device.

So if Mr O happens to get stung by a bee while busy eating his noms and scratching le ballz, and consequentially  jumps in the air? And manages to unweight the rope?

Could be a little surprise for everyone....

Until the rope is weighted again, and locks.

Okay, practically speaking?

I'd be real cautious with ANY form of "self belaying" with this device, including single line rappeling. Free hanging, okay? Ish? Maybe? But walking backwards down a not so steep slab you'd rather not slide down? Could be freaky deaky, imo.

Personally, I think this device will bring shitty grigri habits into crystal clear focus pretty darn quickly. Belay ATC style, plain old single pitch cragging?? You might love it. Wanna eat that sandwich, scratch someone's ballz and pound back a bud or ten while belaying? Stick with your beloved grigri.

And hope the pure dumb luck that's been saving your sorry ass so far sticks with you. 

Just my 2 and a half cents. YMMV. 

Old lady H wrote:

Look, once you actually have this device in hand, you will discover there are 2 very eyebrow raising things it does.

First, yeah, you can feed slack forwards, backwards, slow, fast, by inches, yards, or miles....

(And yes, it will lock, even in "belayer dropped dead we're all gonna die hands free" mode that makes everyone think the grigri will save them better than even heavenly intervention at the apocalypse)

BUT

Number 2 eyebrow raiser?

It also UNLOCKS very very very easily.. Lock, unlock, lock, unlock, just use your hands to pull rope back and forth through it while standing on the ground shooting the shit, and find out for yourself.

Unweight the rope?

Unlock the device.

So if Mr O happens to get stung by a bee while busy eating his noms and scratching le ballz, and consequentially  jumps in the air? And manages to unweight the rope?

Could be a little surprise for everyone....

Until the rope is weighted again, and locks.

Okay, practically speaking?

I'd be real cautious with ANY form of "self belaying" with this device, including single line rappeling. Free hanging, okay? Ish? Maybe? But walking backwards down a not so steep slab you'd rather not slide down? Could be freaky deaky, imo.

Personally, I think this device will bring shitty grigri habits into crystal clear focus pretty darn quickly. Belay ATC style, plain old single pitch cragging?? You might love it. Wanna eat that sandwich, scratch someone's ballz and pound back a bud or ten while belaying? Stick with your beloved grigri.

And hope the pure dumb luck that's been saving your sorry ass so far sticks with you. 

Just my 2 and a half cents. YMMV. 

 

OLH 2024!!!  Got my vote. 

Old lady H wrote:

Look,… Stick with your beloved grigri.

And hope the pure dumb luck that's been saving your sorry ass so far sticks with you. 

Just my 2 and a half cents. YMMV. 

 

This. Is. Fantastic.
OLH, this whole post def deserves to be in the MP pantheon. 

Old lady H wrote:

Look, once you actually have this device in hand, you will discover there are 2 very eyebrow raising things it does.

First, yeah, you can feed slack forwards, backwards, slow, fast, by inches, yards, or miles....

(And yes, it will lock, even in "belayer dropped dead we're all gonna die hands free" mode that makes everyone think the grigri will save them better than even heavenly intervention at the apocalypse)

BUT

Number 2 eyebrow raiser?

It also UNLOCKS very very very easily.. Lock, unlock, lock, unlock, just use your hands to pull rope back and forth through it while standing on the ground shooting the shit, and find out for yourself.

Unweight the rope?

Unlock the device.

So if Mr O happens to get stung by a bee while busy eating his noms and scratching le ballz, and consequentially  jumps in the air? And manages to unweight the rope?

Could be a little surprise for everyone....

Until the rope is weighted again, and locks.

Okay, practically speaking?

I'd be real cautious with ANY form of "self belaying" with this device, including single line rappeling. Free hanging, okay? Ish? Maybe? But walking backwards down a not so steep slab you'd rather not slide down? Could be freaky deaky, imo.

Personally, I think this device will bring shitty grigri habits into crystal clear focus pretty darn quickly. Belay ATC style, plain old single pitch cragging?? You might love it. Wanna eat that sandwich, scratch someone's ballz and pound back a bud or ten while belaying? Stick with your beloved grigri.

And hope the pure dumb luck that's been saving your sorry ass so far sticks with you. 

Just my 2 and a half cents. YMMV. 

 

Looks like the frustrated 'creative writers' migrated from SuperTopo to MtnProj. The tests by a few others, Hard Is Easy in particular, are more thorough than the basic hands on opinions posted here, and given that every belay device has inherent shortcomings, we should appreciate the effort and time spent by others to probe for those potential pitfalls. One noteworthy element is the pulley-like wheel, which when under minimal tension as usually applied when paying out slack, rolls so freely, as to be disconcerting. But once more angular force deflects that pulley, it locks up, and the rope feeds over it with friction very much akin to the standard Grigri. What has confused testers is when attempting to take in rope, under this partial load, the device makes a loud ratcheting noise; this is as designed, and it does not slip the other direction.
As long as the belayer attends to the brake hand on the free side of the rope, the device releases as soon as tension is released; this makes feeding rope far easier, and has no bearing on how or whether the device is less "secure." This does make other uses, like belaying from above directly off an anchor, far more problematic, though. We found lowering to be more controllable than with a Grigri, as the lever and brake hand together can modulate the rate better. Though paying out slack feels silky smooth, even slight twists in the rope or brake hand pinch will initiate lockup, again easily overcome if desired - and thus any quick knot in the spare rope can act as a simple backup if one is worried about such things. Overall, the Neox feels like a great improvement on the ATC method, for anyone used to them, but concerned about controlling a serious fall; just be aware that the brake hand is essential to initiating the catch.