What shelter to use in windy alpine environments?

I once brought a trekking pole shelter to the lower saddle of the Grand Teton. It was absolutely no match for the wind up there, and several guy lines blew in the night, and I got no sleep. That was my first time spending the night in that exposed of an environment, and I didn't realize just how inappropriate the shelter was for the conditions.

After this, I went to the other extreme and got an OR Helium Bivvy. I planned to bring this to the Grand next time I go, and figured it would solve all of my problems.

I recently brought the bivvy on an overnighter in WV to give it a test run, and it poured all night. I didn't know this at the time, but the Helium bivvy CANNOT be used in significant rain; it wets out. It was perhaps the most miserable night of my life.

Now, I don't know what to think. Apparently some people set up a tarp over their bivvy if the conditions call for it, but in my view that's not an option, since the winds at a place like the saddle will pose a serious threat to a tarp strung up with some guylines.

So what are the options then? If you want assurance against potential rain and wind, it seems that the only real option is a 4-season mountaineering tent.

If I knew it wasn't going to rain, I'd be fine bringing the Helium, or even cowboy camping. But you almost never know that. I'm sure some people wait for a weather window and then risk it, but it seems to me that if all you have is a tarp or 3-season tent and the wind comes whipping through, then you're fucked. Or, if all you have is a bivvy, and it starts to rain, you're also fucked. Again, this brings me to the unsatisfying conclusion that a proper mountaineering tent is the only reliable and versatile solution.

Okay, after my ignorant ass did like 30 minutes of research, I realize that the 4-season market is actually more versatile that I had thought. I'm really looking for something specifically for fast and light missions like an overnighter in shoulder-season alpine environments, and I'm a sucker for shaving weight.

The MSR Advance Pro and other "bivvy style" 4-season tents look like a reasonable compromise. Of course, they are $$$. Can anyone recommend these sorts of shelters?

You really should indicate if you’re looking for a one or two-person set up. For two people, I use a Nemo Hornet 2P. When you split it up, each person is only carrying about 1lb. It’s got a low profile, so it does quite well in the wind. I think profile is the number-one factor you wanna consider with high winds.

I’m also curious to know about your guy-line failure. Was it structural, or did they just pull out from the ground/rocks they were attached to?

For solo missions, I just use an OR bivy sack. I generally don’t go out of the weather isn’t looking good. I remember spending one night in the bivy in a down pour over 20 years ago. I honestly don’t remember how much it leaked (I’m sure it was some), but I do remember feeling the heavy rain on my legs and it keeping me awake.

If you want to supplement the bivy, a few companies sell deployable flys. They only weigh a about a pound; they usually are structured by your trekking poles; and you can skip setting it up on clear nights. The one I have is the Nemo Spike. I’m not sure if they still make it. 

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Okay, after my ignorant ass did like 30 minutes of research, I realize that the 4-season market is actually more versatile that I had thought. I'm really looking for something specifically for fast and light missions like an overnighter in shoulder-season alpine environments, and I'm a sucker for shaving weight.

The MSR Advance Pro and other "bivvy style" 4-season tents look like a reasonable compromise. Of course, they are $$$. Can anyone recommend these sorts of shelters?

Used a Samaya tent that a buddy of mine was product testing up on a glacier in maybe 35+mph sustained winds and had a relatively restful night despite. I personally wouldn't dump 2 grand on a tent like the Samaya, but can confirm that the bivy style tent is an option in windy conditions if guyed out properly. Get a used firstlight or an old Bibler if you can find one for cheap on Craigslist or at a gear swap and you'll be good to go.

I've had a tent completely destroyed on the lower saddle of the Grand Teton.  Weather up there can be horrific.

These days, I take a two man mountain tent.  Lots of companies make them.  They all have the same design (2 crossed poles.)  They are relatively light weight, and easier to set up than a pyramid or tarp style tent.  Examples are the  Black Diamond Eldorado; Mountain Hardwear Direkt; Rab Latok; Samaya Assaut.  etc.  Properly guyed out, these tents will stand up to anything short of a tornado.  

How about a bothy bag (instead of a fly) to deploy if you encounter conditions that tax a bivy bag? I think the RAB version is waterproof and can be supported by a pole.

Many of the four season single wall tents suck when it comes to significant rain. They just can not handle all the moisture. That said I have owned many and used them in all seasons. I also have a double walled tent for car camping. We once setup a Bibler Eldo on top of the Grandstand as it was just as light as both bringing bivy sac. That night the wind blew like hell. It was good fun watching the tent go to and fro through the night.

Kai a friend was on the Lower when the old Exum hut was destroyed by the wind. The most dangerous part was the flying sheet metal from the hut which blew down into the moraine. Sometimes one can still find pieces. For years the marmot poles were from the hut. During one summer we collected most all of them and dumped at Exum Guide's and told them after 20 years they needed to clean up their mess.

Surviving significant wind events is less about the tent, and more about really good location scouting for your tent. If you don't have any natural features to shield your tent by, build one (rocks, snow). I've been blown off ridges more often then I would like to admit. 

Long Ranger wrote:

Surviving significant wind events is less about the tent, and more about really good location scouting for your tent. If you don't have any natural features to shield your tent by, build one (rocks, snow). I've been blown off ridges more often then I would like to admit. 

This. You could have bivied in the moraine below the Lower Saddle of Grand and been out of the wind for the most part, in a bivy ring that a party of climbers built for you years ago. Your trekking pole shelter would have worked just fine, and you would have been better rested for your summit attempt. I spent several nights in the moraine area in the late '80s/early '90s in a Chouinard Pyramid tent, which was basically a tarp with one center pole.

A properly set up mid tent could be what you’re after. Gotta have it low and properly tied down if it’s super windy, but I have the BD Megamid (I think that’s the name) and have had that out in wind that was hard to stand upright in, and my buddy with the hyperlight has had his out in real weather, that one is sub-2lbs. On snow I like to carry a bivy sack with it, it makes it easier to live in a snow cave if needed and keeps some heat in so I can get away with a 30-degree bag in single digits.

But find a friend with one before you try it out so you can learn to set it up properly, and how to choose a good site. 

Marc H wrote:

You really should indicate if you’re looking for a one or two-person set up. For two people, I use a Nemo Hornet 2P. When you split it up, each person is only carrying about 1lb. It’s got a low profile, so it does quite well in the wind. I think profile is the number-one factor you wanna consider with high winds.

I’m also curious to know about your guy-line failure. Was it structural, or did they just pull out from the ground/rocks they were attached to?

Good question, I'm looking for two people. I'm pretty surprised that you suggest the Hornet. I have a Hornet 1P which I love, but it's a solidly 3-season tent IMO.
It was structural. The guylines literally snapped.

mark felber wrote:

This. You could have bivied in the moraine below the Lower Saddle of Grand and been out of the wind for the most part, in a bivy ring that a party of climbers built for you years ago. Your trekking pole shelter would have worked just fine, and you would have been better rested for your summit attempt. I spent several nights in the moraine area in the late '80s/early '90s in a Chouinard Pyramid tent, which was basically a tarp with one center pole.

I think this is beside the point. First of all, this question could apply to situations beyond just the Grand where there is no Moraine option.

But, as long as we are talking about this specific approach; the moraine as the (significant) drawback that bear canisters are required. That would change my packing strategy entirely, which really isn't ideal. If only there were a bear box there, as there is at the Caves and the Saddle

Kai Larson wrote:

I've had a tent completely destroyed on the lower saddle of the Grand Teton.  Weather up there can be horrific.

These days, I take a two man mountain tent.  Lots of companies make them.  They all have the same design (2 crossed poles.)  They are relatively light weight, and easier to set up than a pyramid or tarp style tent.  Examples are the  Black Diamond Eldorado; Mountain Hardwear Direkt; Rab Latok; Samaya Assaut.  etc.  Properly guyed out, these tents will stand up to anything short of a tornado.  

Might have to bite the bullet on one of these. I appreciate all of the suggestions for tarps etc. And obviously it would be easier on my wallet to go with a modular setup that includes the bivvy and an optional tarp to erect in the event of rain. But after what happened to me, I just don't see how any trekking pole style tarp is reliable in a place like the Saddle. In fact, I'm pretty sure the only other shelters we saw up there were 4-season domes.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Might have to bite the bullet on one of these. 

They're not lightweight, nor packable at all - the Rab is like 3 1/2lbs. It's a $620 tent you can't sit upright in. Imagine being tent-bound in that. Cheaper to just go up earlier and run from the base.

Joe Hollowed wrote:

Good question, I'm looking for two people. I'm pretty surprised that you suggest the Hornet. I have a Hornet 1P which I love, but it's a solidly 3-season tent IMO.
It was structural. The guylines literally snapped.

I wasn’t suggesting it as much as saying that’s what I’m using currently/have recent experience with. I’ve never camped at the saddle, and only walked through the area once, so I don’t really remember what the winds were like. I think the best advice I’ve seen in this thread has been to erect your tent behind some sort of barrier. It’s hard to trust any nylon when the winds exceed 30mph, IMHO.

My experience mirrors yours.  I bought a very highly rated $500 hiking pole shelter and it was terrible in the first bit of real weather.  Mine was advertised 3+ season shelter, a potentially deadly joke. They should advertise it as 3- season at most, maybe only 1+ season.  A piece of crap.

After that I went with a Hilleberg Anan which is fairly robust, but short and only one person.  Suitable for some stuff.  I think Hilleberg's description of what their tents are designed for is pretty accurate and certainly very useful to shape how you should think about tents robustness.  

Now I am using a slingfin Portal 2.  It is very robust and by far the most robust 3 season tent I have owned in 45 years of backpacking and climbing.  The portal has plenty of room for two, high enough to sit up in, two doors and vestibules on each side.  At 3ish lbs for 2 person shelter it is a good option. Watch their video on how to setup the tent for harsh conditions.  When setup as directed for maximum strength I would call it a 3+ season tent but not 4 season.  Larger diameter poles are also available for the Portal to help with harsh weather.  They also produce 4 season tents.    

The trade you are going to have to make is money, weight, robustness, comfort and breathability.  Many of the 4 season tents above are really 1 season (winter) because of the breathability issue.

There were several threads last year on the subject with some good information.

abandon moderation wrote:

Everyone else pretty much already covered it, so I'll just say: https://www.mountain-forecast.com/ has saved me from multiple shredded tents, or at least given me a heads up to really dig in. It might be a 15mph breeze at 7k and 90+ mph at 13k, so check the elevation you're camping at.

Expedition tents are super burly because you can't run from the weather, everything else is a compromise of some sort. Also keep in mind that many of these tents are designed more for snow than for rain.

This is an aside, but I've never seen conditions match that site's prediction in the PNW. It's always predicting that the day will be much colder, much windier, etc

Long Ranger wrote:

They're not lightweight, nor packable at all - the Rab is like 3 1/2lbs. It's a $620 tent you can't sit upright in. Imagine being tent-bound in that. Cheaper to just go up earlier and run from the base.

There are many climbs where getting up early and running from the base is not an option.  

Not lightweight compared to what?  Besides getting up earlier and running, or digging a snowhole, what is a lighter option for a secure, 2 person shelter that can stand up to mountain weather?  

As with most gear, if you're willing to shell out the $$, you can get very lightweight options.  Samaya Assaut Ultra is 2 pounds, 3 ounces.  Locus Djedi is 2 pounds 2 ounces.  (And you are also saving the weight of the kidney you sold to pay for it.)  

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

As much as Im not a big fan of the first light, it works well enough 

Unfortunately true

ryan climbs sometimes wrote:

As much as Im not a big fan of the first light, it works well enough 

I've read they aren't waterproof though

Kai Larson wrote:

There are many climbs where getting up early and running from the base is not an option.  

Not lightweight compared to what?  Besides getting up earlier and running, or digging a snowhole, what is a lighter option for a secure, 2 person shelter that can stand up to mountain weather?  

As with most gear, if you're willing to shell out the $$, you can get very lightweight options.  Samaya Assaut Ultra is 2 pounds, 3 ounces.  Locus Djedi is 2 pounds 2 ounces.  (And you are also saving the weight of the kidney you sold to pay for it.)  

Sure, everything in gear-land is a compromise, but specialty gear particularly stings since you don't use it all that much and tents especially need to be stored well or they'll just get moldy and be ruined. For me at least, I'm not spending my own $500-$1000 on something I'll use in a blue moon. Given that that's out of my budget, I gotta think creatively, and (coming around again), I gotta think location-location-location. And yeah: maybe that location isn't on the mountain at all. Or just suffer and little and get ready to bail. It's a question of philosophy at that point: which one do you subscribe to.

Bb Cc wrote:

John Muir

THE mountain winds, like the dew and rain, sunshine and snow, are measured and bestowed with love on the forests to develop their strength and beauty. However restricted the scope of other forest influences, that of the winds is universal. The snow bends and trims the upper forests every winter, the lightning strikes a single tree here and there, while avalanches mow down thousands at a swoop as a gardener trims out a bed of flowers. But the winds go to every tree, fingering every leaf and branch and furrowed bole; not one is forgotten; the Mountain Pine towering with outstretched arms on the rugged buttresses of the icy peaks, the lowliest and most retiring tenant of the dells; they seek and find them all, caressing them tenderly, bending them in lusty exercise, stimulating their growth, plucking off a leaf or limb as required, or removing an entire tree or grove, now whispering and cooing through the branches like a sleepy child, now roaring like the ocean; the winds blessing the forests, the forests the winds, with ineffable beauty and harmony as the sure result.

I’ve been using an old army bivy for solo stuff recently. They’re 100% goretex and relatively cheap. Sounds like you’re looking for a tent though.