Average Onsite Grade...Guides Edition

Been more seriously considering the guide path, but I have rarely ventured onto trad climbs that are anywhere close to my on sight level. One thing I know I need work on is trusting gear. I plan to do some aiding to work on that. 

But curious what the average on sight grade on gear is for guides. What is that level of competence? I'm a pretty good repoint climber on bolts (and gear TBH), but definitely struggle with on sighting. That is also a skill I need to work on in general. 

Any guidance is appreciated! 

Side note, if anyone has favorite places in Boulder Canyon to drop a top rope on and do some TR solo aid climbing, much appreciated!

seem guides in eldo on rewritten and swansons and the whale tail a lot! also lumpy ridge. on 5.7-5.8 routes only

seems like it is mostly about being a female guide or being handsome and tall and skinny and good at talking and listening as a male guide to earn good tips and reviews 

drop a top rope on outer space in eldo 

and in bocan on country club crack

The Butt-Shot Whisperer wrote:

seem guides in eldo on rewritten and swansons and the whale tail a lot! also lumpy ridge. on 5.7-5.8 routes only

True, but to get certified, you need to meet certain criteria. And theoretically, someone could hire you to take them up anything.

I'm a dinosaur, so I can only help with history, not current practice.  Back in the 'eighties when I was presenting clinics for guides aspiring to certification in the newly-incorporated AMGA, it was "normal" for a journeyman guide to onsight 5.8 and better wearing alpine or even double boots, and a thirty-+-pound pack.  5.10 in boots with a pack was more impressive, but still not exceptional/unusual.   A few rockstars could onsight 5.12 in rock shoes & gym shorts, but most focused on alpinism.  you say you need to work on trusting gear -- that admission tells me you need mileage -- lots of it.  Forget clipping bolts, and try leaving the guidebook home now & then, so you can  become accustomed to "eyeballing" your route.  Visit a new-to-you area,  select and climb an unbolted route with no information more than what you can see from the ground.

If you want to know current AMGA standards, Mountainproject is the wrong site to be researching.  The AMGA has a website - and that is where you need to be doing your research.

All the info you need is here AMGA Rock Guide

To enter the course you need to be comfortable leading 5.9 trad and have done 10 or more 5.10a trad climbs on various rock types and done at least 10 grade III climbs of any difficulty. 

To take the exam you need to be confident leading 5.10+/A2.

Generally there is a longish apprenticeship between the course and the exam.

Chris Johnson wrote:

Been more seriously considering the guide path, but I have rarely ventured onto trad climbs that are anywhere close to my on sight level. One thing I know I need work on is trusting gear. I plan to do some aiding to work on that. 

But curious what the average on sight grade on gear is for guides. What is that level of competence? I'm a pretty good repoint climber on bolts (and gear TBH), but definitely struggle with on sighting. That is also a skill I need to work on in general. 

Any guidance is appreciated! 

Side note, if anyone has favorite places in Boulder Canyon to drop a top rope on and do some TR solo aid climbing, much appreciated!

5.10

Barely 5.10. More accurately it’s something along the lines of most soft 5.10s.  Standards are low as most guides spend more time alpine climbing and skiing.  That being said, the bar is low and you should aim higher.

Guides that have passed the rock guide exam rarely progress beyond the point they needed to achieve to pass that exam.  Despite what’s written, people pass all the time who definitely don’t meet the letter of the standard. (truly onsight 10+ in any and all styles and rock types) I’d guess only like the 95th percentile of guides can actually do that. 

Chris Johnson wrote:

True, but to get certified, you need to meet certain criteria. And theoretically, someone could hire you to take them up anything.

I don't know if it's a universal truth, but the guide service I work for makes it very clear that you do NOT have to take clients up anything that you're not comfortable on. And it's more than the rating of the route: it can be weather conditions, the client's capabilities, or really just how you're feeling on that particular day.

Chris Johnson wrote:

Been more seriously considering the guide path, but I have rarely ventured onto trad climbs that are anywhere close to my on sight level. One thing I know I need work on is trusting gear. I plan to do some aiding to work on that. 

But curious what the average on sight grade on gear is for guides. What is that level of competence? I'm a pretty good repoint climber on bolts (and gear TBH), but definitely struggle with on sighting. That is also a skill I need to work on in general. 

Any guidance is appreciated! 

Side note, if anyone has favorite places in Boulder Canyon to drop a top rope on and do some TR solo aid climbing, much appreciated!

I am a bit confused - what do you mean "the guide path" exactly?  Do you mean getting paid to rock climb with clients?  Getting certified as an AMGA Rock Guide?  Something else?

I think a lot of people start working with clients after just getting the SPI, which has pretty minimal prerequisites

If you mean the going straight to Rock Guide, the prerequisites and commitment are significantly greater

As to the question of on-sight grade for "guides" in general, having climbed with a lot of them, I think in general most are totally confident leading 5.10 trad at least.  Of course that is a generalization and depends on area, route type etc.

Agree with Max Tepfer. Most guides barely onsight 10a on a good day. The requirement is more like "look smooth for clients on the 10a trade route that you've done 40 times". The bar is set VERY low. Most guides don't really have any real milage to speak of.

Guides in the Tetons liked to joke they can solo 5.6 but cannot climb harder than 5.8.

Josh Rappoport wrote:

I am a bit confused - what do you mean "the guide path" exactly?  Do you mean getting paid to rock climb with clients?  Getting certified as an AMGA Rock Guide?  Something else?

I think a lot of people start working with clients after just getting the SPI, which has pretty minimal prerequisites

If you mean the going straight to Rock Guide, the prerequisites and commitment are significantly greater

As to the question of on-sight grade for "guides" in general, having climbed with a lot of them, I think in general most are totally confident leading 5.10 trad at least.  Of course that is a generalization and depends on area, route type etc.

Yeah, more clarification would help. I meet the minimum qualifications for SPI and am considering taking it in the fall. I've also looked at the pre-reqs for the RGC and figured out what else I'd need to do to qualify for that (about 50% there on all the climbing requirements). But yes, getting paid to guide/ teach/ take clients out.

And that is sort of the sense I've gotten as well. 5.10 in most cases, harder if it's a style or area they are more comfortable with. 

climber pat wrote:

All the info you need is here AMGA Rock Guide

To enter the course you need to be comfortable leading 5.9 trad and have done 10 or more 5.10a trad climbs on various rock types and done at least 10 grade III climbs of any difficulty. 

To take the exam you need to be confident leading 5.10+/A2.

Generally there is a longish apprenticeship between the course and the exam.

I had looked at the pre-reqs for RGC, but hadn't gone past that. Appreciate the call-out about the competence level for the Rock Guide Exam. I think that answers my question. 

Doesnt canada, ACMG, have really hard standard for guides? Like they need to be able to climb 5.11 trad to get the cert?

Any Canucks to verify my random memory?

Mr Rogers wrote:

Doesnt canada, ACMG, have really hard standard for guides? Like they need to be able to climb 5.11 trad to get the cert?

Fairly sure it's the same standard as the US.  At least it was a few years ago.  I think some of the alpine countries in Europe have a higher standard. (like 5.11 or something)  Regardless, the standards seem like they're getting kinda low as climbers are getting stronger and stronger every year.  10+ just isn't what it used to be...

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Guides in the Tetons liked to joke they can solo 5.6 but cannot climb harder than 5.8.

the key word here is JOKE.  the 5/8s these guys/gals are joking about have mostly been upgraded to 5.10 or harder in guidebook reprints.... and the "jokers" are into their seventies...

-Haireball

I have guided part time for the colorado moutnain school since about 2004 and the standards have gone up quite a bit.  The AMGA rock program is pretty rigorous these day and a candidate should expect to be leading multi pitch 5.10 with a light pack on trailing a second rope.  I was never the hot shot but when I was guiding full time I was comfortably on sighting 5.10 although I rarely guided anything that hard.  Most of the climbing I did was 5.6-5.8 with the occasional 5.9 thrown in.  I guided routes like the south face of the petit, love route on hallets, sharkstooth, and rock routes like rewritten, bastille crack, Kors flake and things like that.  Occasionally you would get a client who could climb 5.10 multi pitch but thats not super common.  Currently most of my friends at the mountain school are climbing at least 10+ with many of them climbing quite a bit harder than that.  I can think of a handful that have led 5.13 sport and are pretty solid 5.12 trad climbers. Multiple guides will guide the diamond every year on a handful of routes. I would say most amga guides are leading 5.11 these days but there are exceptions to every rule.  If you are planning on taking the first rock course you should feel pretty solid on most 10- and be able to lead long 5.9 quickly and efficiently or you are likely to suffer on the course. Of course the harder you climb the less stressful the course or exam will be. It also depends on the venue the course takes place in.  A lot of the AMGA rock programs are in red rocks.  The ratings there aren't too stiff and a lot of the big routes that you might get assigned aren't super sustained like triassic sands or black orhpeus. They have also run programs in eldo, RMNP and even the black canyon.  Obviously your average 10a in the black is going to feel quite a bit different than the same grade in red rocks so picking your venue for a course or exam can make a difference.  Also if you have climbed a lot in a particular venue you are much less likely to be on sighting in the course.  Hope that helps.

kinda crazy to think a guide would be onsite

imagine  taking a client on a route they have not done before

guides dont onsite...they know the route and the area by heart then take a client?

getting to know a world class area 

 then do it like the stone masters did skip the thousands of dollars getting certified just be a gypsy guide with no insurance no company just by donation and use a fake name and google phone

and  "guide" the black or the diamond or rifle or shelf or eldo then when u get busted as a gypsy then drive to squamish and guide then EPC in winter to guide and marry up a rich client and become a stay at home dad

The Butt-Shot Whisperer wrote:

kinda crazy to think a guide would be onsite

Does a firefighter practice on the burning building ahead of time or do they practice the associated skills somewhere else in order to become an expert able to take on the objective?

Does a taxi driver drop off and pick up at every destination first?

Going on a "new to you" single-pitch sport route next door to previously climbed routes isn't rocket science. 

The AMGA requires an onsight ability of 5.10+ trad, 11- sport. The ACMG appears to require the same based on their website.  

Every employee at any job started as new sometime. The AMGA and the ACMG require work experience in order to further their certification process. 

Chicken and the Egg. 

The Butt-Shot Whisperer wrote:

kinda crazy to think a guide would be onsite

I have climbed a lot of routes with guides who had not climbed the route before.  

Not crazy at all, particularly if you are doing a 1 to 1 custom climb instead of a group climb.  

Dan Mydans wrote:

I have guided part time for the colorado moutnain school since about 2004 and the standards have gone up quite a bit.  The AMGA rock program is pretty rigorous these day and a candidate should expect to be leading multi pitch 5.10 with a light pack on trailing a second rope.  I was never the hot shot but when I was guiding full time I was comfortably on sighting 5.10 although I rarely guided anything that hard.  Most of the climbing I did was 5.6-5.8 with the occasional 5.9 thrown in.  I guided routes like the south face of the petit, love route on hallets, sharkstooth, and rock routes like rewritten, bastille crack, Kors flake and things like that.  Occasionally you would get a client who could climb 5.10 multi pitch but thats not super common.  Currently most of my friends at the mountain school are climbing at least 10+ with many of them climbing quite a bit harder than that.  I can think of a handful that have led 5.13 sport and are pretty solid 5.12 trad climbers. Multiple guides will guide the diamond every year on a handful of routes. I would say most amga guides are leading 5.11 these days but there are exceptions to every rule.  If you are planning on taking the first rock course you should feel pretty solid on most 10- and be able to lead long 5.9 quickly and efficiently or you are likely to suffer on the course. Of course the harder you climb the less stressful the course or exam will be. It also depends on the venue the course takes place in.  A lot of the AMGA rock programs are in red rocks.  The ratings there aren't too stiff and a lot of the big routes that you might get assigned aren't super sustained like triassic sands or black orhpeus. They have also run programs in eldo, RMNP and even the black canyon.  Obviously your average 10a in the black is going to feel quite a bit different than the same grade in red rocks so picking your venue for a course or exam can make a difference.  Also if you have climbed a lot in a particular venue you are much less likely to be on sighting in the course.  Hope that helps.

This is exactly what I was looking for, appreciate the insight! Do you mind if I email you directly to ask about your experience at CMS?