Mount Rainier considering timed access reservation system

Mount Rainer NP is considering putting restrictions on access to the park during peak season, much like the reservations apparently needed to access RMNP.  

Please consider submitting a thoughtful, non-angry, non-passive aggressive comment using the link below.

I suggested several possible options.  

A frequency based fee schedule to discourage users driving in solely for a selfie opportunity that could be photoshopped by AI.  Basically if you want to use the park once in peak season pay $100.  If you want to access the park 5 times, $125.  10 times, $150.  Unlimited, $175.  Or some version of this that tries to minimalize the impact on marginalized communities and low income users.

Alternatively a validation process- Station intern rangers 5 or 8 miles into the backcountry.  If users hike in to actually engage with the alpine meadows, glaciers, etc that ONLY exist in a handful of places like MRNP then they get their entrance ticket stamped and get in for free next time.

Establish a fully developed public transport system like YARTS and stop allowing most or all personal vehicles into the park. Making exceptions only for disabled individuals, park personnel, etc

From  MRNP-

Potential actions include timed-entry reservation systems, parking permit systems, alternative transportation options, as well as improved wayfinding, signage, roadside scenic vista management, and development of trails.  The EA was informed by public input provided during the early planning stage. The Draft Plan is currently posted for public review and comment. A virtual public meeting will be held to provide information about the Draft Plan and alternatives. Click the link below to see meeting details. 

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?documentID=127898

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=323&projectID=95095&documentID=127898

Edit: previously mentioned Yose's daytime access reservation requirements which have since been temporarily lifted and are different than those proposed at MRNP.  Thanks to commenters below for informing me.

The Yosemite reservation system (2022 version) was honestly not a big deal. You could get reservations pretty easily for whenever you want them, so long as you planned ahead a minor amount. And when you got reservations it was for a 3 day period - come and go whenever you like within that period. It was really not a meaningful impediment to climbers utilizing the park (camping is a much bigger issue...). I had no complaints about the reservations, at least in that implementation.

The concern I'd have for Mount Rainier is that the proposed system sounds more like the RMNP timed entry system. Which sounds like a bigger headache and more limiting.  Perhaps some Colorado folks can report on their experience there.

If the park wants a reservation system, there's going to be a reservation system. Arguing against it is futile (and the alternatives you proposed would never even be considered). The best thing you can do is to argue for terms that are less onerous. I.e. ask for a Yosemite-style system, rather than a RMNP style system. Try to negotiate for a reservation system the climbers can live with (or even benefit from).

FYI Yosemite doesn't have reservations anymore. I'm guessing they'll only come back for Firefall season.

JCM wrote:

The Yosemite reservation system (2022 version) was honestly not a big deal. You could get reservations pretty easily for whenever you want them, so long as you planned ahead a minor amount. And when you got reservations it was for a 3 day period - come and go whenever you like within that period. It was really not a meaningful impediment to climbers utilizing the park (camping is a much bigger issue...). I had no complaints about the reservations, at least in that implementation.

The concern I'd have for Mount Rainier is that the proposed system sounds more like the RMNP timed entry system. Which sounds like a bigger headache and more limiting.  Perhaps some Colorado folks can report on their experience there.

If the park wants a reservation system, there's going to be a reservation system. Arguing against it is futile (and the alternatives you proposed would never even be considered). The best thing you can do is to argue for terms that are less onerous. I.e. ask for a Yosemite-style system, rather than a RMNP style system. Try to negotiate for a reservation system the climbers can live with (or even benefit from).

RMNP timed entry. doesn't really impact me as a climber because we are almost always in before 5:30 a.m. when it takes effect. On the rare occasion we have gone for a lazy start, we have always been able to acquire a timed entry permit. Still don't love the system - but have not found it an impediment to climbing.

Daniel Kay wrote:

RMNP timed entry. doesn't really impact me as a climber because we are almost always in before 5:30 a.m. when it takes effect. On the rare occasion we have gone for a lazy start, we have always been able to acquire a timed entry permit. Still don't love the system - but have not found it an impediment to climbing.

You must be lucky. I am seeing a massive impact from the timed entry system. I have climbing in the park for years and like you have always gotten in around 2-5am generally. However, I am seeing tourists etc getting in before 5 am now in droves to beat the timed entry system. I have had a few occasions already where I wasn’t able to find parking at glacier gorge when we got there around 4:30 am. If the amount of influx before the reservations starts continues it’s only a matter of time before the park changes it to all times.

Also, I despise the shift to reservations and permits. They are extremely restrictive to anyone without money to shell constantly as well as access to a computer and internet. I am a wildlife biologist and work all day in the field without access to a computer. Hence, ever park or wilderness area that has moved to 100% of permits online (ex: maroon bells wilderness as of this year) has left me basically unable to ever nab a permit. Here in Colorado, all the camping/ access permits/ reservations are nabbed up within minutes and that’s being generous. It’s usually under a minute….

Austin Donisan wrote:

FYI Yosemite doesn't have reservations anymore. I'm guessing they'll only come back for Firefall season.

Thanks for the correct info- I should have taken the time to review Yose's current policies before starting the thread.

Very glad to learn Yose has removed these limits on access to public lands.  Hoping the community can come together to try and discourage new limits in other national parks. Instead of just accepting more (in this guy's opinion, unreasonable) regulations are inevitable like another user wants us to do.  

If like me, you see these added regulations as a problem, please consider donating to the National Parks Foundation in addition to making your voices heard.  It's very understandable that as the population grows and a larger share of the population recreates outside, that our land managers are struggling to find sustainable ways to account for this increase in usage volume.  So I try to put my money where my mouth is and throw some extra cash to the Parks Foundation.  But like lots of us I'm not flush with cash, so it's a tough choice to make.

https://give.nationalparks.org/site/Donation2?df_id=3144&mfc_pref=T&3144.donation=form1

JCM wrote:

Arguing against it is futile (and the alternatives you proposed would never even be considered). 

Certainly an idea never offered would never be considered.  Your stance is a bit too nihilist for my philosophy in life, but you have every reason to be discouraged.

Most of our NP infrastucture hasn't been meaningfully updated since it was established in the 50's and 60's, when the population was less than half of what it is today.  Meanwhile roughly have of our congress has actively worked to privatize public lands or reduce the funding available to our public land managers.  I'm not advocating we go bang our fists at a public hearing or send hateful messages to land managers.  I'm advocating we be part of the progress that needs to happen to ensure the public retains reasonable access to our public lands.

It is a delicate balance to strike- adding capacity while protecting the natural resources themselves.  But limiting access further marginalizes the communities unable to waste money on lotteries, relying on luck and disposable income get sites. Or unable to take time off to be logged into recreation.gov the moment permits become available. Its a very complex issue. But the easy way is more restrictions. The hard way is changing fiscal policy, tax reform, community engagement, etc. to ensure everyone is able to enjoy our natural world.

Zach Eiten wrote:

You must be lucky. I am seeing a massive impact from the timed entry system. I have climbing in the park for years and like you have always gotten in around 2-5am generally. However, I am seeing tourists etc getting in before 5 am now in droves to beat the timed entry system. I have had a few occasions already where I wasn’t able to find parking at glacier gorge when we got there around 4:30 am. If the amount of influx before the reservations starts continues it’s only a matter of time before the park changes it to all times 

In all my activities in rmnp since the introduction of the times entry permits, Ive never experienced the above. I either head up the night before a big climb or get in the park before the gates are staffed. 

Zach Eiten wrote:

You must be lucky. I am seeing a massive impact from the timed entry system. I have climbing in the park for years and like you have always gotten in around 2-5am generally. However, I am seeing tourists etc getting in before 5 am now in droves to beat the timed entry system. I have had a few occasions already where I wasn’t able to find parking at glacier gorge when we got there around 4:30 am. If the amount of influx before the reservations starts continues it’s only a matter of time before the park changes it to all times.

Also, I despise the shift to reservations and permits. They are extremely restrictive to anyone without money to shell constantly as well as access to a computer and internet. I am a wildlife biologist and work all day in the field without access to a computer. Hence, ever park or wilderness area that has moved to 100% of permits online (ex: maroon bells wilderness as of this year) has left me basically unable to ever nab a permit. Here in Colorado, all the camping/ access permits/ reservations are nabbed up within minutes and that’s being generous. It’s usually under a minute….

I agree with just about everything you said here. It is a tricky Definitely agree you will find things pretty crowded the closer you get to 5:30.

I do like that Rocky releases a lot of permits for the next day at 5 p.m., which means you don’t need to book it weeks in advance. You just need to be at a computer at 5. 

Austin Donisan wrote:

FYI Yosemite doesn't have reservations anymore. I'm guessing they'll only come back for Firefall season.

You don't have to guess--there's a public process going on for Yose to determine the future of the access plan: https://www.nps.gov/yose/getinvolved/visitoraccessmanagement.htm 

Some tips for public comment: They will be compiled and all published, but do not expect all members of the committee to read all (or any) of the comments. Analysts/clerks will take all the responses and theme them. The themes, with counts of responses, will be presented at a public meeting and likely published as part of the planning process. The committee will usually respond to every major theme (although the quality of responses can vary). 

So if you want maximum impact, be direct, state your concern specifically and clearly. Concerns that you feel must be addressed are going to go much further than your brilliant solution. State your experience with visiting the park, what you do there, and your likelyhood of future visits and how you anticipate how proposed changes would impact you. Don't go into trying to convince anyone how rational you are. Don't give options or write what could be construed as contradictory statements, even if you think you're providing "options". Don't lose your cool, make doom pronouncements, or threats.

Daniel Kay wrote:

I agree with just about everything you said here. It is a tricky Definitely agree you will find things pretty crowded the closer you get to 5:30.

I do like that Rocky releases a lot of permits for the next day at 5 p.m., which means you don’t need to book it weeks in advance. You just need to be at a computer at 5. 

Unfortunately for people like me, I’m almost never near a computer around 5 in summer haha

It’s really too bad Rainier is going this way. I always held Rainier and Grand Teton in high regard for their balance of online permits weeks out/ few days out coupled with walk up permits that made them accessible to almost everyone (plan ahead tourists, weather dependent climbers, impromptu locals, as well as people showing up on a whim)

So, I'm a little confused. Is this in addition to the parks pass and climbing fee?

Spencer Moore wrote:

So, I'm a little confused. Is this in addition to the parks pass and climbing fee?

Presumably yes.  Every time someone gets a timed entry res for Rocky Mount NP right now, BAH (operators of recreaction.gov) takes $2 from them.  The park makes nothing on the timed reservation.  Please correct me if this is wrong.  I haven't been in RMNP for a few years.

https://www.recreation.gov/timed-entry/10086910/ticket/10086911