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Yosemite Decimal System now the Movement Decimal System?
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Curious if there are other members in the climbing community that share the bitterness and judgement I do towards Movement Climbing Gyms new indoor rating system? For those that are not aware Movement Climbing Gyms with more than 20 gyms through the US has decided to make up a new rating system. They moved from the traditional a,b,c,d system to just + & -. You will now see in Movement gyms the following: 5.10- and 5.10+, there is no longer 5.10, 5.11 or 5.12. They have done this to "make it easier on route setters" and maybe to make people feel better about themselves, I don't know. Personally, I find this disrespectful and just wild that Movement is now teaching a new generation of climbers that 5.10 and 5.11 no longer exists. Why in the world would they decide to come up with a grading scale that as far as I know doesn't match a single outdoor climbing area? Doesn't that seem wrong? Maybe I just care too much that gyms continue to sanitize climbing and this is just another example. If you feel similar and are a Movement gym member please make your voice heard here is the 2023 Customer Survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/DZPT7FR
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Gym grades don't matter. They are meant to help you find a climb that is the difficulty you are looking for, nothing else. Wait, did I just fall for a troll post? I never know now-a-days. |
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My local gym tried the 10-/10+, etc. system for a while, but fairly recently reverted back to 10a,b….. After they did so, some climbers there asked me what the “a,b…” meant!!!! |
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Pretty sure the a/b/c/d is still on the kaya app. Who really cares though? Your mom will still love you just as much if your 5.10b gym send is rated 5.10-. |
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The letter grades can still be found on Kaya, at least for the Bay Area gyms…not that having to pull out your phone to check each climb is ideal. I’m guessing they’re doing it for the same reason as keeping the grade placards blank for a week after new sets. |
Susan - wrote: Honestly I think they should keep them blank permanently, I know I can't be the only one who has a little more motivation to push my limits when I don't know the grade and something looks cool. At least for bouldering. |
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I have a bunch of gripes about gym culture and it’s impact on outdoor climbing, but I don’t see how this is disrespectful or a concern whatsoever. |
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Everyone knows the grades are supposed to go: 5.8 |
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Somebody better not tell this dude about The Spot |
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I think that gyms should abandon using the nomenclature of outdoor grading systems. I've never seen a gym that uses one of these systems, be it YDS or V-grades, whose given grades even remotely resemble the outdoor difficulty at that grade, so what's the point? All this does is give gym climbers a false sense of confidence that can lead to them getting in over their heads while climbing outdoors. Stoneworks in Portland, OR has a system where routes/boulders are simply given a color that corresponds to a given difficulty (at least when I climbed there a few years ago). My friends laughed at me when I told them I was stoked to have just sent my first Purple, but I pointed out that the grading at their preferred gym (which used the V-scale) was equally far removed from "real" grades. I think that being forced to spray about your send in terms of colors is a good reminder of what a fool you sound like when spraying in general. |
James - wrote: This is the most accurate grading system that is encountered in reality out at the cliff. Thank you for reminding everyone what the correct sequence actually is. Only thing missing is 5.9++ which is < 5.12- and > 5.11+ |
Andy Shoemaker wrote: The new grading system at Movement is dumb. What if I'm looking for a 5.10? My only options now are 5.10- or 5.10+. Why? This makes it harder to find a climb that is the difficulty I'm looking for, not easier. I actually greatly prefer the +/- system for grading over the .a-.d grading, but +/- only makes sense if there is a middle grade. Movement arbitrarily deciding to remove the grades of 5.10, 5.11, 5.12, etc. is silly and makes no sense. I don't know what Kaya is, and I don't care. I don't have my smartphone out at the gym, nor do I want to have to check an app to see what a climbing grade is. |
Austin Donisan wrote: I don't think you read the post. The photo you posted shows routes with grades of 5.10 and 5.11. Those grades no longer exist at Movement, just 10+ and 10-. |
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-/+ does sorta cover the grade range if you assume 10- could be 10a or 10b and 10+ could be 10c or 10d. That said, my workout log ocd needs that “ “ and I am not reliable for grading myself. |
Ol Toby wrote: Our local gym (Rockreation) went to the 10-, 10+, 11-, 11+, etc. a few months ago. We are not pleased either. This is particularly annoying since the ratings are not related to the real world (10- may be up to 10d anywhere else). 10- should be 10a-ish 10 s/b 10b/c 10+ s/b 10d-ish |
Bickle wrote: +/- grades have existed in the Gunks at least as early as DW's 1972 guidebook, and they became really common starting with TS's 1986 guidebook. + and - are still in use e.g the latest Salo et al guidebook and the GunksApps guides to the various Gunks cliffs. The current ADK guidebook also has an occasional + or - for routes in the 10 to 12 range, though a-d subgrades are more common. (+ and - are used exclusively for routes 9 and below). |
Ol Toby wrote: I hear you. You're saying you don't like climbing routes unless you know exactly how hard it will be for you. I have bad news for you... Every climb feels different to every climber. Hence the silliness in being upset with there only being 12 increments between 5.6 and 5.12 in stead of the 15 increments you feel have been stripped of. Maybe take up distance road running? Of power lifting? Where the challenge presented is as close to a fixed value as possible. PS. If you are looking for a 5.10 and found a 5.10- or a 5.10+ you found a 5.10. If climbing a route that is not exactly as you expect it is upsetting to you, see suggested alternative activities above. |
Gunkiemike wrote: I think you missed my point. The Gunks have 5.10-, 5.10, and 5.10+ correct? Movement just has 5.10- & 5.10+ there is no more just plain 5.10 in their opinion, that is the point I am making. |
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Grades are so subjective (esp in the gym where they aren’t crowdsourced like on MP) so just having - and + seems reasonable. They should just hang up a little chart that converts to YDS or V grades so people have some idea of what it corresponds to in those grading systems |
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Every gym should be as different from every other gym as possible. Homogenization sucks. Celebrate localism. Be proud of your lousy rating systems. |
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I’ll bite, I was just in Denver climbing at movement and thought this grading system was weird. When there is no 5.10, 5.11 etc it makes it hard to know whether a route you are getting on is four letter grades harder than your previous climb or just one. My experience was just that the grading felt all over the place with this system and it was really hard to judge what to get on - especially as someone rehabbing an injury I would have appreciated more clarity so I can “train” appropriately. I think some people in this post are missing that the issue isn’t the +\- grading scale it’s that they cut out the whole number grade so instead of having 3 categories there are only 2 but what whatever GRADES DONT EVEN MATTER BRO |
