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More alps (chamonix, matterhorn) questions

Original Post
Ellen S · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 157

Hi,

I have this thread specifically about sumitting mont blanc, but wanted to ask some other questions more about rock routes. 

Could anyone provide some insight on these questions?

1. It's a very low snow year in Cham. How does this affect approaches to rock routes? Thoughts about what timeframe and to what extent things will start going to shit?

2. For the huts other than the ones along the Gouter route (esp Cosmiques, Torino) how difficult is it to get a reservation? how far in advance do you need to book?

3. Is it at all feasible to find new english-speaking partners in Chamonix? How would I go about doing so other than the international forum here on MP?

4. i'm interested in climbing the Matterhorn via hornli ridge. Is it true that: It's required to stay at Hornli hut; Hornli hut opens jul 1; they may have a winter room which sleeps 15; I assume >15 people want to climb the matterhorn per day; so basically I cannot climb the matterhorn before Jul 1?

5. Feels dumb to be asking these questions in a US forum. Any other sites/forums I should be consulting? Yes I already googled, mostly got guide ads.

6. Could ice routes potentially be in, in early June? is there anywhere that I could check/ask for conditions so that I know whether to pack ice gear?

Thanks in advance for any advice!!

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5

1. It affect approach tremendously, glaciers have a lot of open crevasses. You better know how to pull yourself and others out of it. Time to access the route is often longer as a result as well. Crevasse jumping is a thing; be ready for it. No special timeframe, glacier conditions will be difficult through summer.

2. You do need to book ahead of time, most of the time just a phone call is enough. 3 to 4 days ahead is good enough usually, only exception is gouter hut which is a shit show.  Also charpoua hut is closed this summer.

3. post in english here: https://forum.camptocamp.org/c/partenaires/partenaires-alpinisme-cascade-de-glace/113

4. No idea, can't help you

5. most topo and feedbacks from fellow alpinists can be found here: https://www.camptocamp.org/routes in french so use google translate

6. "Ice route" could be found inside crevasses, upper section of mer de glace, glacier du géant and others, it will only be short single pitches, honestly not really worth it. kufner ridge certainly doable, Tour rond is suicide in summer with tons of car-size rocks falling.
I would still pack ice gear, since bergschrund can be really tricky it' can be key to have 2 tools as well as 2 or 3 screws.
You can ask for specific at the chamonix mountain guide association (center of cham or just call them)

Alex Buisse · · Halifax, NS, CA · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 88
Ellen S wrote:

Hi,

I have this thread specifically about sumitting mont blanc, but wanted to ask some other questions more about rock routes. 

Could anyone provide some insight on these questions?

1. It's a very low snow year in Cham. How does this affect approaches to rock routes? Thoughts about what timeframe and to what extent things will start going to shit?

2. For the huts other than the ones along the Gouter route (esp Cosmiques, Torino) how difficult is it to get a reservation? how far in advance do you need to book?

3. Is it at all feasible to find new english-speaking partners in Chamonix? How would I go about doing so other than the international forum here on MP?

4. i'm interested in climbing the Matterhorn via hornli ridge. Is it true that: It's required to stay at Hornli hut; Hornli hut opens jul 1; they may have a winter room which sleeps 15; I assume >15 people want to climb the matterhorn per day; so basically I cannot climb the matterhorn before Jul 1?

5. Feels dumb to be asking these questions in a US forum. Any other sites/forums I should be consulting? Yes I already googled, mostly got guide ads.

6. Could ice routes potentially be in, in early June? is there anywhere that I could check/ask for conditions so that I know whether to pack ice gear?

Thanks in advance for any advice!!

1. Looks like it might be a repeat of last year: rock routes were in condition as early as beginning of June, and bergshrunds a problem from end of June. By mid-July, things begin to fall apart. Late season could be a complete shit show until the first couple of good snowfalls.

2. Totally depends on the hut, but usually doable a week or two ahead unless you want to go at the absolute busiest time. If conditions shut down large parts of the range, expect the huts giving access to still doable stuff (e.g. Albert 1er) to get slammed.

3. Very feasible and easy. Facebook is probably your best bet, there are many groups for this. camptocamp.org if you speak some French (the international forums don't see a ton of traffic). Or good old-fashioned word of mouth and talking to people in bars or at les gaillands. Just exercise normal caution when picking partners, there is a rather varied spectrum of experience and risk acceptance level.

4. As far as I know, it's not "required" so much as you don't have any other bivy options. The hut is a horrible place, though, and crazy expensive. In your shoes, I would aim to have a good enough fitness level to sleep in Zermatt and hike in extra early from town. Before the hut opens, bivying nearby might be tolerated but you might need to double check that. Swiss people aren't very friendly when it comes to the money printing press that the Matterhorn is.

5. As Fabien mentioned, camptocamp is the main French forum. UKclimbing has a lot of brits so a lot of Chamonix stuff, but it is a rather unique place, even by climbing forums standards.

6. Some high altitude ice routes like the Chéré gully will probably still be doable in early June (it usually is year round, though can become nasty black ice especially after windy periods). If it was a wet spring, you could certainly try stuff like Valeria, Gabarrou-Albinoni, etc, but unlikely to be much there in 2023. Pack a crevasse rescue kit and maybe a couple of screws for the occasional nasty bergshrund (though people rarely carry two proper tools when approaching rock routes, so nasty bergshrunds typically end up just shutting routes for the season).

Aaron Liebling · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 952

UKclimbing is a fine place to find a partner... At least as functional as mountainproject (perhaps a low bar?). I found one of my main partners on there on my first trip to Cham and we've been climbing together for almost 10 years now.

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,100

Regarding huts in Europe, in general camping near a hut is prohibited. Think of it as an exclusive economic zone. There are some exceptions like in the Valleé Blache by the Cosmique Hut. At the same time huts will not turn some away, but if there is no bunk you will be sleeping in the main hall. I have a love - hate relationship with huts. On one level they get people into the mountains with lots of gear. On the other hand, they are noisy (ear plugs are a must). Eye shades too cause someone is alway getting up in the middle of the night with a headlamp.

As for the Hornli Hut and climbing the ridge. There is a well established peeking order, namely no one leaves before the guides. Which in some ways is good because it is easy to get off route on the lower portion of the route. Going from the Italian side is less rigid. 

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5
Alex Buisse wrote:

 people rarely carry two proper tools when approaching rock routes, so nasty bergshrunds typically end up just shutting routes for the season).

Very true but since "nasty bergshrunds" are becoming more and more common I think people will quickly adapt.
For rock route I found that if my partner and I are each carrying a Petzl Gully you can go over pretty much anything combining both.
Then it is easy for the leader to just toss both axes, secured with a piece of rope, so the follower can use both as well. 

giraud b · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2022 · Points: 0

A climbing slog is what Cervino/Matterhorn is. I'd do it if I were you solo, quick in one-go and no staying at the horrible (and damn expensive) Hornli hut. Further info:

https://www.summitpost.org/matterhorn-solo-hornli-ridge/985410

A nice mountain to look at but the climb itself is overrated for several reasons. 

sean o · · Northern, NM · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 48
giraud b wrote:

A climbing slog is what Cervino/Matterhorn is. I'd do it if I were you solo, quick in one-go and no staying at the horrible (and damn expensive) Hornli hut. Further info:

https://www.summitpost.org/matterhorn-solo-hornli-ridge/985410

A nice mountain to look at but the climb itself is overrated for several reasons. 

Huh, I did the slightly harder Lion Ridge and found it quite memorable despite the crowds, and definitely not a slog.  YMMV, of course.

Ellen S · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 157
giraud b wrote:

A climbing slog is what Cervino/Matterhorn is. I'd do it if I were you solo, quick in one-go and no staying at the horrible (and damn expensive) Hornli hut. Further info:

https://www.summitpost.org/matterhorn-solo-hornli-ridge/985410

A nice mountain to look at but the climb itself is overrated for several reasons. 

is it not legally required to stay at hornli hut?

not concerned about climb being overrated. When summiting a mountain I am not looking for quality of movement. More of a mountaineering adventure.

James C · · Seattle, WA · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 147

Wrote a brief guide of sorts to Cham: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1unc59mIZcD5rnFM-YTWFz4J9bfF4G1BN1BXQpYJc2eE/edit?usp=sharing

Yes, tons of english speaking partners on FB, but it was hard for me to find anyone climbing much harder than AI3 or 5.9 (5c ish), or who wanted to do anything besides the trade routes. UKClimbing is generally the best source for info on routes.

Beautiful place, but also kind of crazy scene of "resort climbing" with everyone from casual climbers, families with guides and rental boots, to of course the elites from around the world...

Get an orange SIM card with voice calls so that you can call the huts.

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5
James C wrote:

 it was hard for me to find anyone climbing much harder than AI3 or 5.9 (5c ish), or who wanted to do anything besides the trade routes. UKClimbing is generally the best source for info on routes.

Beautiful place, but also kind of crazy scene of "resort climbing" with everyone from casual climbers, families with guides and rental boots, to of course the elites from around the world...

In terms of level I would say you re right coz people  with higher levels tends to have partners.
In any case with a 6a+ trad/WI5/M5 level you can already do A LOT around Cham, no need to be super hardcore.
As for the mix scene it's also what I really like about Cham. There is something for everyone, I can come with non climbers friends or family that is only cragging and everybody is gonna find something to have a good time.

Ellen S · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 157
James C wrote:

Wrote a brief guide of sorts to Cham: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1unc59mIZcD5rnFM-YTWFz4J9bfF4G1BN1BXQpYJc2eE/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks so much for this guide! Interesting that you recommended bringing skis.

Do you think it is worth bringing skis (+$100 in luggage charges, and painful to carry from airport to cham) if I am coming in June and mostly rock climbing? it seems like this guide is more geared toward winter climbing?

Note skis would only be useful if 1) I'm returning to the base of the route, 2) My partner also has skis, 3) I bring a 3rd set of shoes/boots for any transit between the top of the route and my skis. My skis are pretty light but I don't think I could carry skis & boots up anything but easy 5th.

Yes, tons of english speaking partners on FB, but it was hard for me to find anyone climbing much harder than AI3 or 5.9 (5c ish), or who wanted to do anything besides the trade routes. UKClimbing is generally the best source for info on routes.

I only climb AI3 5.8 so that's perfect for me. Any opinions about how feasible it is to find people for multi-day trips? I'd rather do multi-day stays at Midi since it is literally 9k' higher (better for acclimitizaton) and the lift costs $80

Also does anyone know about tent camping near Midi? I've people do it - is it legal or stealth? Permits needed?

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5
Ellen S wrote:

Do you think it is worth bringing skis

Also does anyone know about tent camping near Midi? I've people do it - is it legal or stealth? Permits needed? 

I only climb AI3 5.8 

1/ Skis are useless in summer.
2/ Definitely not legal to camp around the pic du midi.
Spend the night at refuge des cosmiques or refuge du requin or refuge torino (depending of your objective) if you want to be onsite at night/early morning.
The only place they will let you "stay" at the pic du midi facilities, if you re stuck up there after closing time, is on the floor of the public toilets so it's more of a survival mode than anything else.
Pay for a night in a hut, it will be much, much more enjoyable.
3/ Try a fairly easy route first then, grades in Chamonix can be pretty "old school" (read "much harder than you may think")... 

Alex Buisse · · Halifax, NS, CA · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 88
Ellen S wrote:

Also does anyone know about tent camping near Midi? I've people do it - is it legal or stealth? Permits needed?

Legal? No. Tolerated? Mostly. You are allowed to bivy from sundown to sunup, but people abuse this. There is usually a decently sized tent city on the Col du Midi, below Refuge des Cosmiques, all summer long. The gendarmes typically come and clear it every few weeks or if it really gets out of hand, but for a night or two, you will most likely be fine, especially if you keep your footprint low. The thing *not* to do is plan to spend time in the unmanned huts, like Abri Vallot and Abri Simond. That's not what they are for, conditions are squalid and it generates way too much trash and poop.

Alex Buisse · · Halifax, NS, CA · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 88
Fabien M wrote: The only place they will let you "stay" at the pic du midi facilities, if you re stuck up there after closing time, is on the floor of the public toilets so it's more of a survival mode than anything else.
Pay for a night in a hut, it will be much, much more enjoyable.

That's actually not true anymore. They mostly kick people out to Cosmiques these days, unless things are really dire. There were too many abuses in the past, and the renovated gallery gets messy if people bivy there all the time.

James C · · Seattle, WA · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 147
Ellen S wrote:

Thanks so much for this guide! Interesting that you recommended bringing skis.

Do you think it is worth bringing skis (+$100 in luggage charges, and painful to carry from airport to cham) if I am coming in June and mostly rock climbing? it seems like this guide is more geared toward winter climbing?

Note skis would only be useful if 1) I'm returning to the base of the route, 2) My partner also has skis, 3) I bring a 3rd set of shoes/boots for any transit between the top of the route and my skis. My skis are pretty light but I don't think I could carry skis & boots up anything but easy 5th.

I only climb AI3 5.8 so that's perfect for me. Any opinions about how feasible it is to find people for multi-day trips? I'd rather do multi-day stays at Midi since it is literally 9k' higher (better for acclimitizaton) and the lift costs $80

Also does anyone know about tent camping near Midi? I've people do it - is it legal or stealth? Permits needed?

Yep what they said - skis are only for winter/spring, mostly for ice/mixed season. If you're going for pure rock, you can safely ignore. You can find people for multiday trips pretty easily, just have to discuss your plan like anywhere.

Lots of good lists on UKC with moderates: ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.…

sean o · · Northern, NM · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 48
Fabien M wrote:
Pay for a night in a hut, it will be much, much more enjoyable. 

I'm about as cheap as they come, but I agree.  You're already spending $1000+ for plane tickets, so the $50-75 for a night in a hut (plus dinner and breakfast) is insignificant.  It's part of the cultural experience, and unlike anything you'll find in the western US.

Ellen S · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 157
sean o wrote:

I'm about as cheap as they come, but I agree.  You're already spending $1000+ for plane tickets, so the $50-75 for a night in a hut (plus dinner and breakfast) is insignificant.  It's part of the cultural experience, and unlike anything you'll find in the western US.

For sure, but I had also been wondering how screwed I am if the cosmiques hut is sold out. Sounds like I could potentially fall back to camping in that case. 

Fabien M · · Cannes · Joined Dec 2019 · Points: 5
Alex Buisse wrote:

That's actually not true anymore. They mostly kick people out to Cosmiques these days, unless things are really dire. There were too many abuses in the past, and the renovated gallery gets messy if people bivy there all the time.

Good to know. I spent the night sitting on my pack  in the toilet, chatting and playing silly games with other alpinists but it was 15 years ago. I guess the company running the place got tired of it after a while. 

Ryan G · · San Diego · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 275

On a typical snow year, when do Les Cheserys and similar elevation/aspect crags dryout?   Prospect for this coming season? any info is appreciated.

Alex Buisse · · Halifax, NS, CA · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 88
Ryan G wrote:

On a typical snow year, when do Les Cheserys and similar elevation/aspect crags dryout?   Prospect for this coming season? any info is appreciated.

This is anything but a typical snow year, though... I have been climbing in this spot in mid-April in the past, though needed snowshoes/touring skis for the approach. I could probably climb there next week given the current conditions, though I'd have to choose my route carefully to avoid run offs. Les Gaillands is at the bottom of an avalanche couloir so is more of a May crag. There should be plenty of dry rock down the valley, though.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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