Trad vs sport

Rock climbing began as a discipline of mountaineering, practiced to prepare for the big mountains. It took off on its own in the 30's, and the philosophy was tied to mountaineering, in that they wanted to climb the rock as if it were a section of mountain. No top roping or hanging on the rope, because that didnt happen in the mountains. As climbing grew the ethic continued to emphasize climbing the rock from the ground up. In the 60's and 70's many aid climbs were going free, and hanging on the rope was what the free climbers were trying to eliminate, so everyone was basically on the same page. Then came the 80's and a few climbers were putting up really hard routes, but when people found out that these routes were worked while hanging from the rope they were outraged. These hangdogs were the first sport climbers.

 A tremendous conflict raged about propriety of style, but the sport climbers wouldn't back down, and sport climbing grew. Climbers who continued to do routes from the ground up and lower if they fell were called traditionalists, thus trad climbers. So you had trad climbers and sport climbers. Sport climbs are almost always bolted, so over time people who didnt know any better started calling any bolt protected climb a sport climb, which is ridiculous. A bolted climb that is run out is anything but a sport climb, because it cannot be dogged. Conversely if you know how to place cams you can hangdog your way up most cracks. The designations of trad and sport in their current usage are about meaningless.

Ron Amick wrote:

The designations of trad and sport in their current usage are about meaningless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeYsTmIzjkw 

AI troll post?

Ron Amick wrote:

Rock climbing began as a discipline of mountaineering, practiced to prepare for the big mountains. It took off on its own in the 30's, and the philosophy was tied to mountaineering, in that they wanted to climb the rock as if it were a section of mountain. No top roping or hanging on the rope, because that didnt happen in the mountains. As climbing grew the ethic continued to emphasize climbing the rock from the ground up. In the 60's and 70's many aid climbs were going free, and hanging on the rope was what the free climbers were trying to eliminate, so everyone was basically on the same page. Then came the 80's and a few climbers were putting up really hard routes, but when people found out that these routes were worked while hanging from the rope they were outraged. These hangdogs were the first sport climbers.

 A tremendous conflict raged about propriety of style, but the sport climbers wouldn't back down, and sport climbing grew. Climbers who continued to do routes from the ground up and lower if they fell were called traditionalists, thus trad climbers. So you had trad climbers and sport climbers. Sport climbs are almost always bolted, so over time people who didnt know any better started calling any bolt protected climb a sport climb, which is ridiculous. A bolted climb that is run out is anything but a sport climb, because it cannot be dogged. Conversely if you know how to place cams you can hangdog your way up most cracks. The designations of trad and sport in their current usage are about meaningless.

You point out bolted=/=sport, whilst you fall into the crack=/=trad trap. You silly billy!

John Clark wrote:

AI troll post?

Unlikely, since he's been an MP member since 2008.

Meh.

It's all climbing.  Who cares how you classify it.  Get off the computer and go climbing.  ::looks outside at the rain:: crap

FrankPS wrote:

Unlikely, since he's been an MP member since 2008.

Doesn’t mean a person can’t copy paste from Chat GPT

Well then sport is a route with rap bolted anchors and climbed ground up on gear and Trad is a route you have to downclimb on bolts drill from a stance ground up and then ignored for the much more bomber jammed and slung PBR cans. The cans have to have the tear off tabs though because it is traditional

I think it’s great for people to know the history of climbing and where techniques and terms came from.

But, climbing is always evolving and language is always evolving. Climbing ethics, methods, technology, and terminology have changed and will continue to change. You old farts need to calm down and accept the change.

I say this sincerely as someone who will most certainly be a grumpy, crusty trad dad in the future. 

Don Frijoles wrote:

Even Chat GPT could figure out that he's a real person.

Doesn’t mean he’s not trolling. 

You old farts need to calm down and accept the change.

Nope. I can calmly say that Millennial gym spawn need to accept that what they’re doing when they hangdog a crack climb is not traditional. Trad, yes, traditional, no.

Traditional ethics also allowed for yo-yoing - you just had one generations random ethics replaced with another. It’s hard to argue that either is better style, probably in large part due to the fact that the style argument is unbelievably stupid.

Traditional ethics also allowed for yo-yoing - you just had one generations random ethics replaced with another. It’s hard to argue that either is better style, probably in large part due to the fact that the style argument is unbelievably stupid

Actually, junior, yo yoing was not considered traditional. It became a tactic, like bolting from hooks, that was employed as harder climbs got attempted, and competition pushed climbers to cut style corners on the way to sport climbing

I can easily argue that using no aid on a free climb is better style than yo yoing, but if style means nothing to you, great, you got no style!

Kevin Worrall wrote:

Actually, junior, yo yoing was not considered traditional. It became a tactic, like bolting from hooks, that was employed as harder climbs got attempted, and competition pushed climbers to cut style corners on the way to sport climbing

I can easily argue that using no aid on a free climb is better style than yo yoing, but if style means nothing to you, great, you got no style!

I’m not sure how whipping repeatedly on bolts is somehow more aid than repeatedly whipping on your high point piece between attempts but maybe my frontal lobe isn’t fully developed enough for the nuance.

Tal M wrote:

I’m not sure how whipping repeatedly on bolts is somehow more aid than repeatedly whipping on your high point piece between attempts but maybe my frontal lobe isn’t fully developed enough for the nuance.

Because you placed the piece yourself.

Tradiban wrote:

Because you placed the piece yourself.

So if I bolt a hard sport climb and then whip my way up I can still claim the send?

5.16 here I come

Ron Amick wrote:

Rock climbing began as a discipline of mountaineering, practiced to prepare for the big mountains. It took off on its own in the 30's, and the philosophy was tied to mountaineering, in that they wanted to climb the rock as if it were a section of mountain. No top roping or hanging on the rope, because that didnt happen in the mountains. As climbing grew the ethic continued to emphasize climbing the rock from the ground up. In the 60's and 70's many aid climbs were going free, and hanging on the rope was what the free climbers were trying to eliminate, so everyone was basically on the same page. Then came the 80's and a few climbers were putting up really hard routes, but when people found out that these routes were worked while hanging from the rope they were outraged. These hangdogs were the first sport climbers.

 A tremendous conflict raged about propriety of style, but the sport climbers wouldn't back down, and sport climbing grew. Climbers who continued to do routes from the ground up and lower if they fell were called traditionalists, thus trad climbers. So you had trad climbers and sport climbers. Sport climbs are almost always bolted, so over time people who didnt know any better started calling any bolt protected climb a sport climb, which is ridiculous. A bolted climb that is run out is anything but a sport climb, because it cannot be dogged. Conversely if you know how to place cams you can hangdog your way up most cracks. The designations of trad and sport in their current usage are about meaningless.

If climbing was a war sport would be the regime and trad would be the guerrillas.

Touch grass nerd 

LOL I really do not have to read any of the responses to your post. IF U were a hot woman like Lynn I would be totally in love with what u just said.To this day I have been plagued by the topic of sport climbing. I remember my first time up ABCS in suicide. This was NOT a sport climb that u and I know. Face climbing as it was called in our day is like completely diff from what it is now called sport.  I have been to shelf, and do u know what I think about it? just is completly  bolted bolted every 5 ft. Were is there are  runouts? like u Did start climbing before me. it was 75 when I started. But WERE DID THE SOUL OF A Climber got lost?

And I think that prob U on this site can be the only one to answer that. thx

Michael Abend wrote:

I think it’s great for people to know the history of climbing and where techniques and terms came from.

But, climbing is always evolving and language is always evolving. Climbing ethics, methods, technology, and terminology have changed and will continue to change. You old farts need to calm down and accept the change.

I say this sincerely as someone who will most certainly be a grumpy, crusty trad dad in the future. 

FUG How can I NOT respond to this. Yes there are many old timers on here. BUT even Alex is not a sport climber. why do u think that is?  New Gym Grown Climbers that are considered sport climbers. Have U ever experienced the experienced  the SOUL of a rock Climber?. Since I got injured I cant do it anymore. If I could I would be climbing forever. And quite literally I am in tears now even thinking about it.  I dont know U, and I dont know your experience. I will always support up and coming climbers. You just dont get it. when the day comes that U cant climb again, I think at that time you will understand how I now feal.