How “tight” should climbing shoes be?

Hi I‘m a climber who’s been climbing for around 3 months. I got my first pair of evolv elektra laces as a gift (I’m a guy, but the girls model fit be better) and I got it a half a size up from my street shoe size (I wear a 9.5 and my climbing shoes are 10). They’re pretty comfortable and my toes curl a very tiny bit at the end, and I can move (curl) my toes around if I want to. Recently I’ve been wondering if they were too big, so I went to REI to check some shoes out. They had a scarpa origin on the returned item section for a really cheap price so I just picked them up (was a size 9.5). They feel better and snug with toes curling much more, and felt pretty sturdy. But now I’m just wondering if I should’ve gotten a smaller size. What’s a perfect fit for shoes?

Don't sweat it.  This early into climbing the shoes aren't really making a difference unless they're sloppy big or hurt small.  This first year just go for snug but comfortable. Sounds like you're there.  

Tim Fleeger wrote:

Don't sweat it.  This early into climbing the shoes aren't really making a difference unless they're sloppy big or hurt small.  This first year just go for snug but comfortable. Sounds like you're there.  

Thanks! I probably wouldn’t have to sweat too much as a beginner. I felt like I needed to cramp my feet into smaller shoes because all those YouTube and internet reviews tell you to size down 1-2ish

There’s no general rule about sizing down from your street shoes because printed sizes vary wildly by model and manufacturer. I have size 42.5 La Sportivas that are more comfy than size 45 Five Tens. Foot shape can matter a lot as well. There’s no substitute for trying a bunch of shoes on.

Snug but comfy is the right fit for starting out. You’ll know when you’re ready to start suffering for your art. :-)

Keep in mind though that many shoes will stretch from “uncomfortably tight” to “comfortably snug” reasonably quickly.

For what it's worth, in the first two years of climbing I did permanent damage to my toes by wearing very tight shoes for everything. Now, I can't wear tight shoes for a single route without feeling pain for several days afterwards. When I was first starting, the tighter shoes definitely helped me climb better, but at the time I was so much worse than I am now, that by now it seems like terrible trade off. If I could go back and do it differently, I'd do exactly what everyone up thread is saying by wearing snug but comfortable shoes, which is effectively what I _have_ to do now anyway, but maybe I could've saved myself the option of wearing tight shoes sporadically when I "needed to" now.

Daniel Jeun wrote:

 "I felt like I needed to cramp my feet into smaller shoes because all those YouTube and internet reviews tell you to size down 1-2ish"

Also keep in mind climbing shoe sizes vary WILDLY. I wear 11 street shoes, 10.5 in most Five Ten shoes (up to 11.5 in some models), and 9.5 - 10 in some la Sportiva shoes. 

I got along fine with some comfy 5.10 Gambit's for the first year or two of climbing, and only when I started climbing 5.10+ slab outside (really tiny edging) did I notice the shoes didn't offer the support I needed to really dig my feet in on a particular route. 

My tightest shoes are uncomfortable for the first two days of use, and then become gloves on my feet. For a beginner I think finding a pair that is comfortable, on the "snug" side of tight (barely tight at all) is probably where you should be until you are climbing aggressively enough that you think "damn, if only my shoes were tighter."

Good advice here so far. Also, Evolv's are notoriously weird with their sizing. I love them, and have two pairs, but have to wear 2-3 sizes larger in them than in my Sportivas.

If they are snug, but don't hurt, that's the sweet spot, regardless of number. 

DO NOT GET TIGHT SHOES.

Fit them so there isn't slop around your feet = comfortable snug. Go for comfort without gaps. 

"Keep in mind though that many shoes will stretch from “uncomfortably tight” to “comfortably snug” reasonably quickly. " = horrible advice for beginners. You don't want to F up your toes/feet. Shoes won't be your weakness for a long time. 

I’ve got a buddy who’s been climbing 5.12 for years in Mythos. As long as your foot isn’t moving around within the shoe when you weight your foot, you’re good. That said, how shoe feels  just standing there doesn’t tell you enough. Seek out shoe demo days at your local gym. But reinforcing what everyone has said so far, don’t go for uncomfortable shoes. Let’s say you develop into an awesome climber. You’ll know what you need by that time. And it still might not be super tight.

Also good to remember that "aggressive shoes" and "tight shoes" are not necessarily the same thing.

"Aggressive" shoes are usually just a more downturned, asymmetric last (foot box shape).

"Aggressive shoes" benefit from a snug fit, but they don't need to be painfully tight.

When money isn't tight, and I'm climbing a bunch (though those rarely line up), I tend to own 3 pairs of shoes. Downturned and asym snug for steep gymnastic climbing, flat cushy and comfy for all day adventure climbing with some crack action, and stiff-ish split-the-difference shoes for standard cragging.

Sportiva Katanas have been my go to lately. Fit my particular foot shape pretty well and have a snug, downturned fit, but I can feel comfortable enough on a variety of features - pockets, heel hooks, edging, slabby flat smearing with decent ankle RoM, even most cracks as long as they aren't really toe crunchers.

It's a process, finding your shoe fit preferences - but it can be a fun hunt and prompt some icebreaker socializing at the crag/gym.

Avoid painfully tight shoes, give hype consideration but not credence, know the conceptual diff between synthetic and natural leather stretch, dont get any foot nasties from trying on other peoples shoes, go with what has you feeling comfortable and confident, and it'll be a fun journey finding your weapons of choice and expanding your arsenal. 

When you find a model and size you like, not a bad idea to grab a couple extra pairs to have in reserve. At one point I had like 5 identical pairs of Asics court volleyball shoes for fencing, as they were the perfect shoe but had been recently discontinued, and fencing tends to tear shoes apart pretty quickly.

And try to watch a 5.14 climber send 5.12+ in Vans Skateboarding shoes sometime. It'll really put it in perspective that technique and skill is way more important than how perfectly snug your shoe is.

On that note, how many of you are blown away watching someone like Honnold solo stuff up to 10's (maybe even 11's?) in approach shoes? I just don't get it.  I'm good up to about 5.1 and then I'm putting my climbing shoes on.  Does it just take more practice to learn to trust the edge on these things?  Is his technique and strength so ridiculously high that it compensates for the shoes?  

Foot "shape" is a biggie.  If the toe box and your foot shape don't match then there is no way it will ever be comfortable and climb well for you without pain.  Try on every model shoe you can find - when you finally hit the right one - you'll know.  The right shoe will fit your entire foot snugly with no "hot spots".  Sometimes the shoe you want does not want you back.

Something that hasn't been mentioned...

A lot of people talk about shoes will eventually stretch to fit your foot. Two things to remember:

1. Synthetic uppers will stretch a lot less (some maybe not at all) than leather
2. shoes will not stretch to any significant degree in length since the rubber sole and other materials in the foot bed will not stretch at all.

If your toes are crying from being jammed in the front of the shoe when you try it on, they will be crying when you try to climb. You also risk permanent injury to your toes (see some comments above). And to reiterate, as a beginner, the last thing you need right now is an aggressively down-turned shoe.

Brent Kelly wrote:

And try to watch a 5.14 climber send 5.12+ in Vans Skateboarding shoes sometime. 

Is this real or just a motivational speech?

How much pain can you stand???

Yury wrote:

Is this real or just a motivational speech?

Brian Anthenuisse,

The orange-tape 5.12c through the center roof, easily

 Summit Rock Gym (The OG. RIP.), Grapevine, Texas

circa winter 2010

Plastic is a wee bit more forgiving than rock when it comes to footwear. Also a 5.14 climber sending a gym 12 is like me walking down a steep, slippery, wet sidewalk; it takes some concentration, but I'm not exactly exerting myself.

My $.0002 is that you should get like 10 pairs of whatever shoe is most comfy for you, because it's going to be discontinued and you'll die alone and sad as a result.

Zach Baer wrote:

Plastic is a wee bit more forgiving than rock when it comes to footwear. Also a 5.14 climber sending a gym 12 is like me walking down a steep, slippery, wet sidewalk; it takes some concentration, but I'm not exactly exerting myself.

My $.0002 is that you should get like 10 pairs of whatever shoe is most comfy for you, because it's going to be discontinued and you'll die alone and sad as a result.

Yeah, if I recall correctly, it was definitely well suited to being done in skate shoes -- Gym grades do tend to be soft, and it was steep and somewhat juggy, with a few necessary hand crimps that werent necessary foot crimps. I can somewhat imagine 5.12's that would be nearly impossible without flat sticky rubber modern-age climbing shoes, even for Megos and Ondra.

But that's kind of my point. To a 3 month-in newbie climber, 5.12 tends to feel impossible in *any* shoe.

But climbing harder is about more full-body core engagement than just how aggressively you can edge on a dime thanks to wearing a crazy tight shoe. The "new philosophy" of "smedging" microholds with no-edge shoes...

So to realize that a shoe isnt going to be nearly as significant as growing physically stronger, and especially as learning to be skillful -- that's a powerful revelation. At least it was for me. I've seen that type of climbing loads and loads since then, especially guides in the mountains climbing 5.9/5.10 in Guide Tennies, but that was the first time I saw it really demonstrated. After seeing B.A. climb like that, I stopped squeezing into super tight shoes and just went with snug and form fitting. 

Also have some horror stories of kiddos looking to maim themselves with too-tight-shoes ("Da Agony Of Da Feet", anyone?) while pulling pairs off the shelf working as a floor salesman at Neptune a few years back. That convinced me that there was too much negative peer pressure to look for a competitive edge through dangerously tight shoe-fits. Happy to preach towards the comfy at the convertable. 

These days, a relatively heavy and plateua-y but entertained and satisfied 5.12 projecter / V6 boulderer (and as one who had potentially fatal injury with a blood clot running from my elbow to my chest, and having a rib cut out of my body ~5 years ago to prevent recurring DVT's), I'm not looking for a performance edge through risk of injury. And I'm not looking to encourage the risk of injury in anyone else.

Enjoyed the crap out of some V5 gym bouldering in hiking shoes today, though. 

Your shoes should fit like a nice pair of expensive leather driving gloves. If you're feet hurt climbing is not fun and you won't climb as well.