Trad Anchors with Webbing

In search of advice:

I understand static rope is generally used to tie off to trees or boulders when top roping without bolted anchors, but how would this look with webbing? What knots should be tied? How should they be equalized? Should you tie off the tree/boulder and then attach a different anchor to them, or just a single carabiner to feed the rope through?

Based on your questions, I would advise in-person instruction from a qualified professional/mentor.

You should start with a book. There isn't a book that addresses your particular questions, but there are books that do a good job of covering broadly basic top roping anchor basics. They would prepare you well and help you get to the point where you can ask more informed questions.

Here is the classic book many of us have learned from: https://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Anchors-Climb-John-Long/dp/0762782072

In person mentorship would definitely be the ideal, however. 

Setting up top ropes can actually be quite dangerous so I'm hesitant to give too much information. We had a woman die at one of my nearby crags just last year from this. =( 

Please use a lot of judgement and caution and ensure you are prepared before going out there. Top roping is extremely safe once everything is set up, but legitimately setting it up can be some of the sketchier things people do in climbing. Mitigating those risks requires a fair amount of knowledge. 

You can gain that knowledge but it will require work on your part and definitely ideally in person mentorship. 

Bobby Hutton released a pretty good video on staying safe while setting up top ropes recently also: 

https://youtu.be/uskPB6m6ybU

I agree with in-person mentorship. I taught a course on top rope climbing at a local crag and an entire day was spent on edge safety and consider teaching top rope systems to be more dangerous than teaching lead climbing. I highly recommend Anchors by John Long. It helped me get a better understanding of my systems and helped prepare me to learn more. 

I built top rope anchors with webbing when I first started but have switched to 9mm static line. Far easier to handle and it can be used as an edge tether to keep you safe. Webbing is prone to abrasion over edges and requires more skill with knots. 

I appreciate all your advice and concern. I will be attending two NOLS courses over the next year where I plan to learn all about these concepts, but I was mainly looking for = advice for before I left. However, I will consider either taking a class before my course or just not doing top rope before I leave. 

Maya Victoria wrote:

I appreciate all your advice and concern. I will be attending two NOLS courses over the next year where I plan to learn all about these concepts, but I was mainly looking for = advice for before I left. However, I will consider either taking a class before my course or just not doing top rope before I leave. 

OK, cool. 

So the problem with your original question is that we can't tell you what knots to tie and how to set it up without looking at that particular anchor. In reality setting up anchors isn't like having one or two anchors that you have in your quiver that you pull out and implement, it's more like having a broad knowledge of systems and then adapting different anchor types to particular situation. So it isn't a huge amount of information -we could cover it over a couple hours in conversation- however, you do need to know about pre equalized and self equalizing anchors, a handful of basic knots, and knowledge of the risks involved and how to mitigate them.  

So before we can even seriously start answering your questions you have some homework to do, as we can't tell you to set up the anchor X way with Y and Z knots unless you provide us with a very specific scenario like pictures of the top of a climb you're interested in. And even then there will be dozens of ways to go about it, all of which are valid and are just based on preferences. If you wish to do some top roping before you take your classes I would start with that John Long book and see how it goes from there, but waiting until after your classes certainly isn't a bad idea.

I took the anchor lessons up at Devils Lake from Devils Lake Climbing Guides.  You can either sign up for one of their open enrollment days or take a private course.  I found it was very helpful to learn how to safely set a top rope anchor.

Maya Victoria wrote:

In search of advice:

I understand static rope is generally used to tie off to trees or boulders when top roping without bolted anchors, but how would this look with webbing? What knots should be tied? How should they be equalized? Should you tie off the tree/boulder and then attach a different anchor to them, or just a single carabiner to feed the rope through?

I would do a wrap two pull 1 method with a single overhand knot with 15-18" of tail. It will give you 26kN of force strength.

My go to is 2x 240cm dyneema slings, each girth hitched around a different tree as the legs.  Then, another 240cm sling to tie into a quad for the middle.

 Connect each leg to the quad with locking carabiners, and place another locking carabiner (or 2 if you want) on the quad as the master point.  

This works well when there's lots of trees relatively close to the edge.  Carry extra 240cm, 120cm, and 60cm dyneema slings and locking carabiners to get more length if you're trees are too far back from the ledge, and to even out the leg lengths. Avoid sharp edges as much as possible.  

This isn't a perfect example but is similar to what I'm talking about, plus an extra sling up the middle:

Jim Day wrote:

My go to is 2x 240cm dyneema slings, each girth hitched around a different tree as the legs.  Then, another 240cm sling to tie into a quad for the middle.

 Connect each leg to the quad with locking carabiners, and place another locking carabiner (or 2 if you want) on the quad as the master point.  

This works well when there's lots of trees relatively close to the edge.  Carry extra 240cm, 120cm, and 60cm dyneema slings and locking carabiners to get more length if you're trees are too far back from the ledge, and to even out the leg lengths. Avoid sharp edges as much as possible.  

This isn't a perfect example but is similar to what I'm talking about, plus an extra sling up the middle:

What is the purpose of the center anchor?  That entire setup can be done with one piece of static line at lot easier.  On one leg use a bowline note and on the other leg use a sling, carabineer and clove hitch. When top roping, you should also have two locking carbineers on your master point.

Andrew R wrote:

What is the purpose of the center anchor?  That entire setup can be done with one piece of static line at lot easier.  One one leg use a bowline note and on the other leg use a sling, carabineer and clove hitch. When top roping, you should also have two locking carbineers on your master point.

Center anchor wasn't load bearing, just a backup for comfort in case the trees pulled out, which I don't really think would have happened anyway.  So no real purpose.

I think using an assortment of dyneema slings and a few extra locking carabiners ends up being lighter than carrying static rope.

I don't disagree with using 2 lockers as the master point, i usually just use one locker myself and snug the gate pretty tight with my fingers to prevent it from unscrewing.  If the gate is over the edge as it should be, the risk of failure is pretty low, but i know people screw this up so It's good advice to use 2.  

This was actually just a single line reppel/ top rope solo setup, which I think is more justifiable to use a single locker at the master point since the rope doesn't move through the carabiner.

Jim Day wrote:

Center anchor wasn't load bearing, just a backup for comfort in case the trees pulled out, which I don't really think would have happened anyway.  So no real purpose.

Something to think about with tree anchors: if a tree pulls out, there's going to be a rain of rocks, dirt, plus the tree itself, landing on you, your belayer, and everyone at the base. Don't incorporate a tree into your anchor unless you're 100% sure it's not going anywhere.

I'm glad you didn't think any of your trees were going to pull out, but your "backup" anchor wouldn't have protected you from the some real hazards of a tree failure.

Nkane 1 wrote:

something to think about with tree anchors: if a tree pulls out, there's going to be a rain of rocks, dirt, plus the tree itself landing on you, your belayer, and everyone at the base. Don't incorporate a tree into your anchor unless you're 100% sure it's not going anywhere.

I'm glad you didn't think any of your trees were going to pull out, but your "backup" anchor wouldn't have protected you from the real hazards of a tree failure.

ThAnKs NkAnE!!!!!

Maya Victoria wrote:

I understand static rope is generally used to tie off to trees or boulders when top roping without bolted anchors

Correct.  Don't fight it.  Get 100 feet of static and learn to use it.  You can build complex anchors with a minimum number of components and easily inspect the system.  And, you can build yourself a tether in the process so you can go hang the rope without dying.

Jim Day wrote:

Center anchor wasn't load bearing, just a backup for comfort in case the trees pulled out, which I don't really think would have happened anyway.  So no real purpose.

I think using an assortment of dyneema slings and a few extra locking carabiners ends up being lighter than carrying static rope.

I don't disagree with using 2 lockers as the master point, i usually just use one locker myself and snug the gate pretty tight with my fingers to prevent it from unscrewing.  If the gate is over the edge as it should be, the risk of failure is pretty low, but i know people screw this up so It's good advice to use 2.  

This was actually just a single line reppel/ top rope solo setup, which I think is more justifiable to use a single locker at the master point since the rope doesn't move through the carabiner.

My typical setup if I intend to only wrap boulders or trees for top rope rope is one 120cm sling, one 30 foot piece of webbing, 50 feet of 9mm static line and 3 locking carbineers.  Two of the carbineers are for the master point. With that setup it is easy to equalize both legs and I don't have to bring anything else because my anchors maybe further back from the edge.  I will add another 120 cm sling, 10 feet of webbing and couple more lockers/locking carabineer if I think I will be using trad gear as part of the anchor.  Weight is not a major issue, I just distribute the gear with the other people I am climbing with that day.  There is no reason for one person to carry all the gear.

Andrew R wrote:

There is no reason for one person to carry all the gear.

More often than not, I climb/ develop alone, and the approaches are often several miles over rugged terrain.  I never even bring 50 feet of dynamic rope, much less static rope.  

When you consider the weight of a drill and all the other gear required for installing fixed hardware, there is absolutely plenty of reason to bring an assortment of dyneema slings rather than 50-100 feet of static rope.   If there's not trees close enough to the edge, I install a bolt.