Permas: How to affix steel carabiner to chain without captive pin?

I recently purchased some Steel Petzl Djinn carabiners and SS chain to make permas with; I typically use captive eye wire gate carabiners (fixe, metolius, & trango all have decent ones) but they are often out of stock & I got Djinns on sale. I wonder what the best way is to affix the Djinn to the chain (like captive eye) so they don't flip around. I am familiar with the below methods; I am interested in hearing what MP gearheads have to say.

1. Tape - Pros: everyone has tape, tape is cheap, can be semi biodegradable (if not polymer based) if/when it falls off. Cons: likely to fall off quickly, easily weathered, not very robust
2. Wire - Pros: rigid, cheapish. Cons: can corrode easily especially if dissimilar, sharp if unwound
3. Zip ties (double in X pattern) - Pros: Cheap, pretty rigid, can last several years. Cons: Plastic is litter, tails of ties can be sharp when cut
4. Road bike Inner tubes - Pros: smooth - no sharp edges, great use for old tubes. Cons: most tubes are natural synthetic mix-petro is litter, weathers quickly?, can't access lower links to indirect
5. Dogbone keeper- Pros: smooth, some peeps prefer branded climbing specific products like these. Cons: petro = litter when they fall off, need to find one that fits chain, likely pricey
6. Nothing! let those Djinn spin - Pros: no litter, no additional cost. Cons: spun gates can make for pumpy redpoints, side loading more possible?, peeps hate my routes because i didn't use a keeper

I'm leaning toward zip ties (#3) or inner tubes (#4) though I have not tried the inner tube menthid yet.

Are there any other methods y'all use? Would love to hear more options that don't involve plastics!

https://smcgear.com/captive-eye-wire-keeper-small.html

Hey Shawn, I tried pretty heavy duty zip ties on Djinns and they don’t last very long at all. Now, when used on anchors, I just let them be. Their shape keeps them pretty well oriented. Also, be aware that steel Djinns are designed for indoor use and will rust pretty quickly in damp climates. They seem to do fine in the desert, but I see that you are in Seattle. 

Frank Stein wrote:

 Also, be aware that steel Djinns are designed for indoor use and will rust pretty quickly in damp climates. 

Correct, I'm in Seattle, I plan on using the Djinns on some steeper stuff that stays dry/doesn't seep much so hoping they won't rust too fast!

Thanks for the input on the zip ties!

Shawn S wrote:

Aaron you knew about these and still went with zip ties on your permas?

I wonder if they would fit on Djinn, also they look like they would need to be crimped down to a carabiner slightly to stay in place depending on fit.

Thanks for the link!

I just found them haha

epoxy?

JaredG wrote:

epoxy?

Ahh, I thought about epoxy some in the past but didn't cross my mind when posting today, it might be a decent option. 

The 2-part adhesives I've used with glueins (ac100, redhead, sika) have gotten on my aluminum and steel carabiners when installing GIs, when it hardens, I am able to get it off the carabiners with a minimal effort since most of the time it is just small globs on the spines. Some cons to epoxy: may be too brittle and just chip away quickly (& polymer chips = litter), could be very messy, can have sharp edges when cured, could be a little pricey, and if it holds too well, it could be a pain in the butt to replace worn carabiners.

 Perhaps if I used an epoxy or adhesive that is optimal for metal-metal bonds or use one of the Glue In adhesives and a bunch of it, it will hold.

I want to think I've seen folks use a nut and bolt with a bent washer...hmm...

Also, this might work:

Captive eye clip

Genuine question... Are you concerned that other climbers will steal them? This has not happened at one of our local overhanging limestone crags. All routes there have permadraws from chain and none of our carabiners are ever stolen. 

Not worried about anyone taking them, just don't want the carabiners to spin upside-down when ropes are pulled.

Epoxy putty when used correctly can last for years/decades. Some of my 20-yr-old chaindraws are still in service.

Shawn S wrote:

Not worried about anyone taking them, just don't want the carabiners to spin upside-down when ropes are pulled.

Yeah that happens from time to time, but its not really an issue for us. Not sure I would spend any energy trying to fix it. 

Matt King wrote:

Yeah that happens from time to time, but its not really an issue for us. Not sure I would spend any energy trying to fix it. 

But think of the Onsights/flashes! 

Fair point though, I'll see how much they spin without anything, pretty sure they have a little ridge near the base of the gate and opposite that helps keep dogbones in place, maybe it will help on the chain too?

Hey since this is the most recent thread on permas....

Team Tough now has the 6mm long link chain as well as the 8mm. They are also selling the premade permas with wire gate attached. 

I think the 6mm chain would be great for anchors and permas. 

timothy fisher wrote:

Hey since this is the most recent thread on permas....

Team Tough now has the 6mm long link chain as well as the 8mm. They are also selling the premade permas with wire gate attached. 

I think the 6mm chain would be great for anchors and permas. 

If the wire gates they have attached are like the 3/8 US Stainless captive eye I use for anchor lower offs (they look very similar from the website pix) then clipping those permas on route would be tricky, the gates on the 3/8 US Stainless captive eye are super stiff!

I laugh every time someone brings up how stiff those SS captive eye carabiners are, like we don't participate in one of the most finger strength intensive sports out there. 

The team tough wire gates are stiff. They have a bent gate that would help, but i keep that in mind when placing them. 

Same with pigtails. Dont use them everywhere.

Resurrecting this thread. Has anyone tried a Petzl Stuart on a permadraw?

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Professional/Connectors/STUART

Zachary Winters wrote:

Resurrecting this thread. Has anyone tried a Petzl Stuart on a permadraw?

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Professional/Connectors/STUART

Just use Petzl STRING
or these bad boys are the cheapest solution and work well....castration rings.

Mr Rogers wrote:

Just use Petzl STRING

Well heck I didn't expect that to actually work!

Zachary Winters wrote:

Well heck I didn't expect that to actually work!

Enjoy!
Using the STRING is pretty elegant, but at $1-2 each is a bit hard to swallow for cheap ass me when heavy duty o-rings are great for this purpose and just exponentially cheaper.

Petzl is closing out the STRING L as they released an updated version, so you can likely find 10 packs on sale RN.